6 ms·

I’d say that’s more of a capitalism problem than a technology problem

soggylaundry 4y ago
well if you look at world history, it always has been like this -- look at all those proudly-written enslavements, crimes and massacres. But we're starting to grow out of it, and tech is helping us track down crimes that were near-impossible to track down.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  Very often tech is enabling these crimes. Monitoring and punishment of millions of people was much more difficult before.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    And exposure and transparency was much more difficult before too. A tool is a tool, how it is used is the important part.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    The Soviet Union had no trouble at all monitoring and punishing tens of millions of people. It also operated forced labor camps (gulags) on a vast scale.
reitanqild 4y ago
Actually, on average the rich countries that has diverged most from capitalism has been significantly worse. I'm leaving out the developing countries on purpose here: they may have had it even worse but it doesn't feel fair to blame them. Nazi Germany and Soviet/USSR (the whole time more or less) can't blame anyone else for the insane scale of human suffering that they created. Both are representatives of centrally planned economies where companies either don't exist in a western sense (Soviet), or only exist to serve the country (Germany).
- LtWorf 4y ago
  Both nazi germany and soviet union were poor countries at the time.
  - reitanqild 4y ago
    Well, but I still don't want to put them in the same category as Congo or Bangladesh. There are major differences.
  - MandieD 4y ago
    Nazi Germany became Nazi Germany in large part because of severe economic problems, but by the late 30s, living conditions for conforming, “good” Germans had improved somewhat.
- MandieD 4y ago
  There was a reasonable supply of consumer goods for “good” Germans in the late 30s and early 40s after the economy started turning around, and food wasn’t a serious issue until very late in the war, and was worst in the years right after (again, for “good” Germans). Weird little anecdote: my mother-in-law had her feet x-rayed in a shoe shop to check the fit of her new shoes circa 1943 in Essen. Absolutely no military benefit to ensuring that a 3 year old’s shoes fit, but definitely a market advantage for a shoe shop competing for sales (remember, we didn’t know that casual x-ray usage by non-radiologists was a terrible idea). The big industrials were geared for military production, especially after 1939, but their owners often helped support the Nazis on their way to power, because they were more worried about Communists and Socialists, and either didn’t take the Nazis seriously, or figured the conservatives could get them under control… or actually agreed with them. There’s a reason that the modern Social Democratic Party in Germany is the same organization that existed pre-NS era, but the Christian Democrats (conservatives) and Free Democrats (market liberals) were completely new post-war organizations.
lupire 4y ago
"capitalism" (as used by critics) means "unregulated market', which means it's just the economic term for "human nature". The only thing unnatural about capitalism is external enforcement of property claims, and that's not what causes slavery.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  Slavery is the norm in non-capitalist societies. The emergence of free markets coincided with a dramatic decline in slavery.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > The emergence of free markets coincided with a dramatic decline in slavery. Free markets are an analytical fiction like frictionless surfaces; they don’t exist in the real world. The emergence of the real-world economic system for which the term “capitalism” was coined (which is not the same system as the modern mixed economy that has generally replaced it, though both critics and defenders of the modern mixed economy conflate it woth capitalism, with which it shares some core elements) corresponds with the expansion of chattel slavery and the development of the slave trade, and pressure for its abolition corresponds with (and often involved the same people as) early organized opposition to capitalism.
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      > Free markets are an analytical fiction like frictionless surfaces; they don’t exist in the real world Yes, they do exist. They aren't perfect. Nothing human is perfect. Slavery goes back to the dawn of man. In America, slavery was the norm (including among the native americans) until the US was formed. Yes, I know that only half the colonies had abolished slavery when the union was formed, it was forcibly abolished in the rest in 1865.
      - yellowapple 4y ago
        > Yes, I know that only half the colonies had abolished slavery when the union was formed, it was forcibly abolished in the rest in 1865. It had to be forcibly abolished because "free" market capitalism failed to bring about abolition itself; plantation owners had a vested interest in maintaining the institution of slavery. In fact, said vested interest is sufficiently strong that we never actually abolished slavery in the US; we simply replaced plantations with private prisons, and chattel slaves with penal slaves. Said private prisons, penal slavery, and the broader prison-industrial complex are all the direct consequences of "free" market capitalism as applied to the American penal system.
HideousKojima 4y ago
Labor camps in the Soviet Union suggest otherwise. More likely, being an evil asshole is a human universal, and the (relatively) peaceful life and society we enjoy in the west right now is the exception in history, not the rule. Capitalism as a system at least has the advantage of acknowledging the existence of self interest and attempts to harness it. Communist systems try and pretend it doesn't exist or can somehow be socialized away (i.e. the New Soviet Man).
- listenallyall 4y ago
  > Capitalism as a system at least has the advantage of acknowledging the existence of self interest and attempts to harness it. Hey! Ayn Rand has joined the chat.
- prottog 4y ago
  There are a a lot of people who believe that evil assholes are only created due to the oppressive forces du jour (whether that be capitalism, white supremacy, or whatever), not that it is innately a part of human nature.
  - HideousKojima 4y ago
    Which is just patently silly from a cursory glance at history and the horrific acts committed under every economic, religious, and social structure ever.

well if you look at world history, it always has been like this -- look at all those proudly-written enslavements, crimes and massacres. But we're starting to grow out of it, and tech is helping us track down crimes that were near-impossible to track down.

ClumsyPilot 4y ago
Very often tech is enabling these crimes. Monitoring and punishment of millions of people was much more difficult before.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  And exposure and transparency was much more difficult before too. A tool is a tool, how it is used is the important part.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  The Soviet Union had no trouble at all monitoring and punishing tens of millions of people. It also operated forced labor camps (gulags) on a vast scale.

reitanqild 4y ago

Actually, on average the rich countries that has diverged most from capitalism has been significantly worse. I'm leaving out the developing countries on purpose here: they may have had it even worse but it doesn't feel fair to blame them. Nazi Germany and Soviet/USSR (the whole time more or less) can't blame anyone else for the insane scale of human suffering that they created. Both are representatives of centrally planned economies where companies either don't exist in a western sense (Soviet), or only exist to serve the country (Germany).

LtWorf 4y ago
Both nazi germany and soviet union were poor countries at the time.
- reitanqild 4y ago
  Well, but I still don't want to put them in the same category as Congo or Bangladesh. There are major differences.
- MandieD 4y ago
  Nazi Germany became Nazi Germany in large part because of severe economic problems, but by the late 30s, living conditions for conforming, “good” Germans had improved somewhat.
MandieD 4y ago
There was a reasonable supply of consumer goods for “good” Germans in the late 30s and early 40s after the economy started turning around, and food wasn’t a serious issue until very late in the war, and was worst in the years right after (again, for “good” Germans). Weird little anecdote: my mother-in-law had her feet x-rayed in a shoe shop to check the fit of her new shoes circa 1943 in Essen. Absolutely no military benefit to ensuring that a 3 year old’s shoes fit, but definitely a market advantage for a shoe shop competing for sales (remember, we didn’t know that casual x-ray usage by non-radiologists was a terrible idea). The big industrials were geared for military production, especially after 1939, but their owners often helped support the Nazis on their way to power, because they were more worried about Communists and Socialists, and either didn’t take the Nazis seriously, or figured the conservatives could get them under control… or actually agreed with them. There’s a reason that the modern Social Democratic Party in Germany is the same organization that existed pre-NS era, but the Christian Democrats (conservatives) and Free Democrats (market liberals) were completely new post-war organizations.

lupire 4y ago

"capitalism" (as used by critics) means "unregulated market', which means it's just the economic term for "human nature". The only thing unnatural about capitalism is external enforcement of property claims, and that's not what causes slavery.

WalterBright 4y ago
Slavery is the norm in non-capitalist societies. The emergence of free markets coincided with a dramatic decline in slavery.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > The emergence of free markets coincided with a dramatic decline in slavery. Free markets are an analytical fiction like frictionless surfaces; they don’t exist in the real world. The emergence of the real-world economic system for which the term “capitalism” was coined (which is not the same system as the modern mixed economy that has generally replaced it, though both critics and defenders of the modern mixed economy conflate it woth capitalism, with which it shares some core elements) corresponds with the expansion of chattel slavery and the development of the slave trade, and pressure for its abolition corresponds with (and often involved the same people as) early organized opposition to capitalism.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    > Free markets are an analytical fiction like frictionless surfaces; they don’t exist in the real world Yes, they do exist. They aren't perfect. Nothing human is perfect. Slavery goes back to the dawn of man. In America, slavery was the norm (including among the native americans) until the US was formed. Yes, I know that only half the colonies had abolished slavery when the union was formed, it was forcibly abolished in the rest in 1865.
    - yellowapple 4y ago
      > Yes, I know that only half the colonies had abolished slavery when the union was formed, it was forcibly abolished in the rest in 1865. It had to be forcibly abolished because "free" market capitalism failed to bring about abolition itself; plantation owners had a vested interest in maintaining the institution of slavery. In fact, said vested interest is sufficiently strong that we never actually abolished slavery in the US; we simply replaced plantations with private prisons, and chattel slaves with penal slaves. Said private prisons, penal slavery, and the broader prison-industrial complex are all the direct consequences of "free" market capitalism as applied to the American penal system.

HideousKojima 4y ago

Labor camps in the Soviet Union suggest otherwise. More likely, being an evil asshole is a human universal, and the (relatively) peaceful life and society we enjoy in the west right now is the exception in history, not the rule. Capitalism as a system at least has the advantage of acknowledging the existence of self interest and attempts to harness it. Communist systems try and pretend it doesn't exist or can somehow be socialized away (i.e. the New Soviet Man).

listenallyall 4y ago
> Capitalism as a system at least has the advantage of acknowledging the existence of self interest and attempts to harness it. Hey! Ayn Rand has joined the chat.
prottog 4y ago
There are a a lot of people who believe that evil assholes are only created due to the oppressive forces du jour (whether that be capitalism, white supremacy, or whatever), not that it is innately a part of human nature.
- HideousKojima 4y ago
  Which is just patently silly from a cursory glance at history and the horrific acts committed under every economic, religious, and social structure ever.