4 ms·

I feel like standardized tests are way more fair than GPA. I personally struggled a lot in school due to health and other issues. I also hated doing homework w

by mradek 4y ago

I feel like standardized tests are way more fair than GPA. I personally struggled a lot in school due to health and other issues. I also hated doing homework which is BS work, and I always had high scores on my midterms and finals which I think matter way more. Why does busywork play such a big role? It should be exempted. If I can get a 95+ on midterm and final I obviously understand the material. Why did I need to spend hours of my day doing BS exercises when I already understood the material? Nonsense. So I get a B at best overall because I get a F on homework? What a joke. I really think school is a waste of time when it’s done that way. Learn stuff, move on. I wish that when I have kids I can afford to send them somewhere they can actually grow and thrive, not just sit down and do a bunch of homework problems. (Just my $0.02)

Aliabid94 4y ago
Most real world work is grinding through boring work as well, and it’s worthwhile to build the discipline for it.
- TheHegemon 4y ago
  Completely agree with this. I used to skip most of my classes but would get As on all of my tests. Now I struggle immensely on going through the every day grind of adult life.
  - anthlax 4y ago
    Correlation or causation? Perhaps if you didn’t skip classes, you’d still struggle through adult life but also struggle through childhood. Perhaps you’d just be more numb.
- mikebenfield 4y ago
  There are better ways to build discipline than spending a huge chunk of ages 5-18 doing otherwise pointless busy work.
  - barry-cotter 4y ago
    But are there better ways to build obedience?
- hiremelocally 4y ago
  I wish you were wrong, but you're not. Ability to work a BS system absolutely is a marker of success in society.
- renewiltord 4y ago
  Perhaps it's worth sampling the population and seeing whether outcomes match. I'll go first. I didn't do this. My parents intentionally did my cursive writing homework for me so I could read and go out and explore the countryside. I now run eng at a prop trading firm that you'll occasionally see in the FT.
- iopq 4y ago
  That's why I don't do "real work" anymore. You understand not everyone has a goal of being a salaried employee in life, right?
  - Ancalagon 4y ago
    What do you spend your time on instead, and how do you support yourself? Unless there's some other definition for "real work" that still involves money but isn't some form of a job - be it self-employed, entrepreneurial, or otherwise.
    - iopq 4y ago
      I became rich and retired. I spend my time on myself
- nicoburns 4y ago
  It was the arbitrariness of academic work that got to me. Real world work tends to be clearly directed at a goal, and if you acheive the goal it doesn't tend to matter much how you did it. Academic assessments (poorly designed ones, which happens to be most of them in my experience) expect you to do things exactly in a prescribed manner. Essentially 50% of what you're doing isn't actually useful learning, it's domain-specific learning where the domain is "what my professor happens to care about".
jimbob45 4y ago
It seems to be the case that GPAs are more important with scholarships than admissions, where boards are looking to find any edge to be able to differentiate students.
ninesnines 4y ago
I agree with many aspects of this; however, I do think learning how to grind through work is important. However, I remember being a child and a teenager trying to do the designated school and extracurriculars and then homework felt insane. I would often be doing work til 11. This does not feel like a way to inspire children or make them excited to learn. I loved school in many ways, but the homework caused so much stress when I think if I had more time to explore intellectual interests I think I would have more excited about many subjects that weren’t my favorite
brailsafe 4y ago
Well, I have the opposite opinion. First of all because tests don't remotely represent the nature of doing work. It's a momentary expenditure of energy, and all of rides on perfect performance that day. Luck, rote memorization, and some skill development. So in my view, I read it as "Why should I have to do bs when I'm lucky and tend to do well on tests?" In my cs classes, I did terribly on tests, and got 100% on all the work, so I failed. Why? Well I have chronic sleep issues and miserable short term memory that's gotten worse over time, and the mid-term was 40%. I also just don't really care about the outcome, because it doesn't represent my ability to do any of the tasks in the real world. Oh, I was too slow in writing out the exact java syntax for a generic implementation of a priority queue implemented with an array? Tests aren't inherently virtuous. You have to believe in them to do well, and you have to feel adrenaline in the process. Usually has nothing to do with incremental progress, measurable skill, or anything valuable really. I can now recall various key bits of key events from the Byzantine empire, but did I do well on the test? No, I was a bit tired that day. Both should be balanced, and relevant. The tests and the homework should meaningfully test whether or not I can do what they intend to indicate. Not "He couldn't sit there for 3 straight hours from 6pm to 9pm on one night of the year writing out java in pencil in a dead silent room.
- iopq 4y ago
  WTF is lucky? You can hit all of the questions you know in one test. You can't be "lucky" on every test, that's a ridiculous claim
  - brailsafe 4y ago
    Lucky in the sense that if 50% of your whole grade rides on one block of time on one day, you better hope to have a really good day. If you sit down and realize "sheesh, I have no mental clarity at all today", you're kinda fucked.
    - iopq 4y ago
      That's why there are midterms, if it's only 25% of your grade, getting a bad grade on one doesn't mean you can't pass the class I would prefer having quizzes on each chapter as well, so every few weeks you review the material
ht_th 4y ago
> If I can get a 95+ on midterm and final I obviously understand the material. That's assuming that these midterms/finals accurately and completely assess understanding of the material. As a teacher, I need more assessment moments than one or two tests in a term to monitor, guide, and support students' learning processes, for all students in my class. This "busywork" gives me the extra input I need to adapt my teaching to my classes and students. Of course, from my perspective, this isn't "busywork" because I try to create meaningful learning activities. However, from the perspective of some students, I can understand it feels like busywork. I try to differentiate, but that's not always possible, particularly if you're performing significantly above average. The problem is that even if you are doing fine without the busywork, your classmates might not and need the training through busywork. Or they might need the structure and incentive to do something at all. Unfortunately, giving some students no work and other some work and other a lot of work will not go down well, particularly in larger heterogeneous groups. So we end up treating everyone the same, more or less. This can really suck for any student who's an outlier to the positive OR negative side. Ideally, you'd get an education tailored to your needs, but in practice that's difficult to realize depending on where you live, your parents' background, etc. For example, if you're living in a smaller village with just a single high school, you don't have much choice. Similarly, if your parents don't understand what you need, they'll not go look for it. Or if your parents don't have the means to support your alternative schooling, bad luck. Etc.
- jobs_throwaway 4y ago
  A professor I had had a pretty good solution. Give homework, but only make it 5% of the score for the class. A couple of quizzes are 5% each, and the midterm + final are the remaining 85%. That way, if a student needs the structure, they get it, and on the other hand if a student is able to ace the tests without doing the busywork, they can still get their A or A+. The instructor also then gets lots of input points throughout the term. Some students (particularly those who spent lots of time on the HW but didn't do well on the tests) found this unfair, but I think it teaches an important lesson: that you don't get credit for trying. Your performance actually matters.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
derbOac 4y ago
The flip side of the fairness argument is that test scores are just one time point (often just a couple of hours, maybe several hours at most, of one day) in one format with no flexibility for unusual circumstances or anything. GPA, in contrast, is reflective of repeated things over a long time period, with lots of variables accounted for. There's issues with GPAs too, like lack of standardization, but they both have their issues with fairness.
Ancalagon 4y ago
If this were the case then couldn't we just make high school diplomas, heck even university degrees, a series of midterm and final tests? Why have lectures at all when people can come in knowing the material online? What if you could start "school" in one week, test nonstop for the next month, and have your degree in CS assuming passing marks at the end?

by mradek 4y ago

Aliabid94 4y ago

Most real world work is grinding through boring work as well, and it’s worthwhile to build the discipline for it.

TheHegemon 4y ago
Completely agree with this. I used to skip most of my classes but would get As on all of my tests. Now I struggle immensely on going through the every day grind of adult life.
- anthlax 4y ago
  Correlation or causation? Perhaps if you didn’t skip classes, you’d still struggle through adult life but also struggle through childhood. Perhaps you’d just be more numb.
mikebenfield 4y ago
There are better ways to build discipline than spending a huge chunk of ages 5-18 doing otherwise pointless busy work.
- barry-cotter 4y ago
  But are there better ways to build obedience?
hiremelocally 4y ago
I wish you were wrong, but you're not. Ability to work a BS system absolutely is a marker of success in society.
renewiltord 4y ago
Perhaps it's worth sampling the population and seeing whether outcomes match. I'll go first. I didn't do this. My parents intentionally did my cursive writing homework for me so I could read and go out and explore the countryside. I now run eng at a prop trading firm that you'll occasionally see in the FT.
iopq 4y ago
That's why I don't do "real work" anymore. You understand not everyone has a goal of being a salaried employee in life, right?
- Ancalagon 4y ago
  What do you spend your time on instead, and how do you support yourself? Unless there's some other definition for "real work" that still involves money but isn't some form of a job - be it self-employed, entrepreneurial, or otherwise.
  - iopq 4y ago
    I became rich and retired. I spend my time on myself
nicoburns 4y ago
It was the arbitrariness of academic work that got to me. Real world work tends to be clearly directed at a goal, and if you acheive the goal it doesn't tend to matter much how you did it. Academic assessments (poorly designed ones, which happens to be most of them in my experience) expect you to do things exactly in a prescribed manner. Essentially 50% of what you're doing isn't actually useful learning, it's domain-specific learning where the domain is "what my professor happens to care about".

jimbob45 4y ago

It seems to be the case that GPAs are more important with scholarships than admissions, where boards are looking to find any edge to be able to differentiate students.

ninesnines 4y ago

I agree with many aspects of this; however, I do think learning how to grind through work is important. However, I remember being a child and a teenager trying to do the designated school and extracurriculars and then homework felt insane. I would often be doing work til 11. This does not feel like a way to inspire children or make them excited to learn. I loved school in many ways, but the homework caused so much stress when I think if I had more time to explore intellectual interests I think I would have more excited about many subjects that weren’t my favorite

brailsafe 4y ago

Well, I have the opposite opinion. First of all because tests don't remotely represent the nature of doing work. It's a momentary expenditure of energy, and all of rides on perfect performance that day. Luck, rote memorization, and some skill development. So in my view, I read it as "Why should I have to do bs when I'm lucky and tend to do well on tests?" In my cs classes, I did terribly on tests, and got 100% on all the work, so I failed. Why? Well I have chronic sleep issues and miserable short term memory that's gotten worse over time, and the mid-term was 40%. I also just don't really care about the outcome, because it doesn't represent my ability to do any of the tasks in the real world. Oh, I was too slow in writing out the exact java syntax for a generic implementation of a priority queue implemented with an array? Tests aren't inherently virtuous. You have to believe in them to do well, and you have to feel adrenaline in the process. Usually has nothing to do with incremental progress, measurable skill, or anything valuable really. I can now recall various key bits of key events from the Byzantine empire, but did I do well on the test? No, I was a bit tired that day. Both should be balanced, and relevant. The tests and the homework should meaningfully test whether or not I can do what they intend to indicate. Not "He couldn't sit there for 3 straight hours from 6pm to 9pm on one night of the year writing out java in pencil in a dead silent room.

iopq 4y ago
WTF is lucky? You can hit all of the questions you know in one test. You can't be "lucky" on every test, that's a ridiculous claim
- brailsafe 4y ago
  Lucky in the sense that if 50% of your whole grade rides on one block of time on one day, you better hope to have a really good day. If you sit down and realize "sheesh, I have no mental clarity at all today", you're kinda fucked.
  - iopq 4y ago
    That's why there are midterms, if it's only 25% of your grade, getting a bad grade on one doesn't mean you can't pass the class I would prefer having quizzes on each chapter as well, so every few weeks you review the material

ht_th 4y ago

> If I can get a 95+ on midterm and final I obviously understand the material. That's assuming that these midterms/finals accurately and completely assess understanding of the material. As a teacher, I need more assessment moments than one or two tests in a term to monitor, guide, and support students' learning processes, for all students in my class. This "busywork" gives me the extra input I need to adapt my teaching to my classes and students. Of course, from my perspective, this isn't "busywork" because I try to create meaningful learning activities. However, from the perspective of some students, I can understand it feels like busywork. I try to differentiate, but that's not always possible, particularly if you're performing significantly above average. The problem is that even if you are doing fine without the busywork, your classmates might not and need the training through busywork. Or they might need the structure and incentive to do something at all. Unfortunately, giving some students no work and other some work and other a lot of work will not go down well, particularly in larger heterogeneous groups. So we end up treating everyone the same, more or less. This can really suck for any student who's an outlier to the positive OR negative side. Ideally, you'd get an education tailored to your needs, but in practice that's difficult to realize depending on where you live, your parents' background, etc. For example, if you're living in a smaller village with just a single high school, you don't have much choice. Similarly, if your parents don't understand what you need, they'll not go look for it. Or if your parents don't have the means to support your alternative schooling, bad luck. Etc.

jobs_throwaway 4y ago
A professor I had had a pretty good solution. Give homework, but only make it 5% of the score for the class. A couple of quizzes are 5% each, and the midterm + final are the remaining 85%. That way, if a student needs the structure, they get it, and on the other hand if a student is able to ace the tests without doing the busywork, they can still get their A or A+. The instructor also then gets lots of input points throughout the term. Some students (particularly those who spent lots of time on the HW but didn't do well on the tests) found this unfair, but I think it teaches an important lesson: that you don't get credit for trying. Your performance actually matters.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

derbOac 4y ago

The flip side of the fairness argument is that test scores are just one time point (often just a couple of hours, maybe several hours at most, of one day) in one format with no flexibility for unusual circumstances or anything. GPA, in contrast, is reflective of repeated things over a long time period, with lots of variables accounted for. There's issues with GPAs too, like lack of standardization, but they both have their issues with fairness.

Ancalagon 4y ago

If this were the case then couldn't we just make high school diplomas, heck even university degrees, a series of midterm and final tests? Why have lectures at all when people can come in knowing the material online? What if you could start "school" in one week, test nonstop for the next month, and have your degree in CS assuming passing marks at the end?