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> I don't see how `b` is not a string. Because it isn't. There is no concept of a string. `if [[a] [b]]` is similar to `(if a b)`. So in your example `a [b]` i

> I don't see how `b` is not a string. Because it isn't. There is no concept of a string. `if [[a] [b]]` is similar to `(if a b)`. So in your example `a [b]` is similar to s-expression `(a b)`. Neither "a" nor "b" are strings here.

kazinator 4y ago
If b is a symbol, which one is it? Is it interned, or uninterned? Given the Jevko syntax [b b], is that a repetition of the same object, or is that two different symbols that have the same name? Is it like (b b) or (#:b #:b)? Why or why not; based on what documentation? In symbol manipulation, symbols are atoms. Each symbol represents an identity. An identity cannot be fractured into sub-identities. The textual name of a symbol just provides a written notation; all semantics of symbol manipulation concerns itself only with whether two symbols are the same one or a different symbol. For instance the idea that the symbol foo is a prefix of the symbol foobar is invalid. We may only ask whether foo and foobar are the same entity or different. A basic operation in symbol manipulation is semantics-preserving substitution. If Jevko is based on symbols then [a b b] can be replaced by [a c c] without loss of semantics. In fact, all we are doing is changing the name of the b symbol; its identity remains the same. Suppose there is some application built on Jevko in which [a=b b] cannot be replaced by [a=b c] without destroying the semantics; suppose it has to be that in that application, if b is replaced by c, then [a=b b] must turn into [a=c c], in order to preserve a relationship that holds between a=b and b. That application has then destroyed the concept of a Jevko symbol, because a=b isn't functioning like an atom any more. It's functioning like two symbols a= b or possibly three symbols a = b. Thus if a=b is really one symbol, and not a string of three characters, then no legitimate, Jevko-respecting application of Jevko can do anything like this, namely treat a=b as being syntax which codes for two or three atoms. But that's a lie, because Jevko is intended for doing that sort of thing like it's going out of style. For instance, in this code: https://github.com/jevko/jevkodom.js/blob/master/jevkoToHtml.js https://github.com/jevko/jevkodom.js/blob/master/jevkoToHtml... can you explain what mid.endsWith('=')? "attr": "tag" is doing? It sure looks to me like it's asking whether a symbol (i.e. indivisible atom) ends with an equal sign, which is semantic gibberish.
- djedr 4y ago
  This analysis would be valid if we were talking about lambda calculus or a Lisp with square brackets. Jevko isn't that. It's not a programming language[0]. It's just syntax, with even less semantics than JSON and even simpler than S-expressions. There are no symbols or references in Jevko. It's important here to separate syntax and semantics. S-expressions are not Lisp. They are its syntax. Semantics is a separate matter. @gnulinux and @User23 have it right. Strings are an implementation detail. You could store the parsed text as numbers or you could Gödel-encode the entire tree into one giant number. Saying then that Jevko is nothing but numbers is conflating things. --- Just to clarify, in Jevko `[b b]` doesn't parse to what your description implies you think it does. `b[b]` or `[[b][b]]` would be closer to that. If you are interested in the details, please have a look at the specification or diagrams: * https://jevko.org/spec.html https://jevko.org/spec.html * https://jevko.org/diagram.xhtml https://jevko.org/diagram.xhtml From there you should be able to easily write a parser in your favorite Lisp! ;) --- > can you explain what mid.endsWith('=')? "attr": "tag" > is doing? It sure looks to me like it's asking whether a symbol (i.e. indivisible atom) ends with an equal sign, which is semantic gibberish. There are no symbols or indivisible atoms here. What's happening here is parsing. `jevkoToHtml` is a kind of parser-transpiler which operates on a syntax tree, rather than a sequence of characters or tokens. The syntax tree is the output of an earlier stage of parsing, done by the Jevko parser. So you can think of this as multi-pass parsing, by analogy with multi-pass compilation. At the same time as this second pass of parsing is happening, translation to HTML is happening as well. Hope this clarifies things! --- [0] To clearly see the point, here is a toy programming language which uses Jevko as its syntax: https://github.com/jevko/jevkalk https://github.com/jevko/jevkalk
  - kazinator 4y ago
    > Semantics is a separate matter. I agree; and symbol is a semantic entity, not a syntactic one. S-expressions do not have symbols, they have tokens which become symbols when read into the machine. Tokens are clumps of characters. i.e. strings. > There are no symbols or references in Jevko. > @gnulinux and @User23 have it right. Those two are insisting that texts are symbols in Jevko, so the above two statements contradict each other. E.g. gnulinux> You're not understanding. These are not strings. These are symbols. User23> Jevko language [...] has no strings. For example, a Common Lisp hosted Jevko parser implementation might choose to represent Jevko text objects as symbols. > What's happening here is parsing. `jevkoToHtml` is a kind of parser-transpiler which operates on a syntax tree, rather than a sequence of characters or tokens. That is obviously false. It's operating on a nested list of strings, whereby it's making a semantic decision whether a string in a certain position of a nested item in the structure ends in the = character. In other words the syntax is character-level. The strings themselves have syntax, which is made of characters. That's in the Jevko specification. Characters are the atoms in Jevko. The = character that the code is looking for is a %x3D element. It's right here: https://github.com/jevko/specifications/blob/master/draft-standard-grammar.md https://github.com/jevko/specifications/blob/master/draft-st... The = character is %x3D. An %x3D is Character. A Character is one of the kinds of Symbol (the other being Digraph). A Symbol is a constituent of Text. Text generates a Prefix or Suffix. A Suffix alone can be a Jevko due to this rule: Jevko ::= *Subjevko Suffix Thus, formally Jevko does have Symbols: a Symbol is a Character or Digraph. A Text is a sequence of Symbols, which are Characters or Digraphs. It is in no way an atom. A sequence of characters or diagraphs is a string.

kazinator 4y ago

If b is a symbol, which one is it? Is it interned, or uninterned? Given the Jevko syntax [b b], is that a repetition of the same object, or is that two different symbols that have the same name? Is it like (b b) or (#:b #:b)? Why or why not; based on what documentation? In symbol manipulation, symbols are atoms. Each symbol represents an identity. An identity cannot be fractured into sub-identities. The textual name of a symbol just provides a written notation; all semantics of symbol manipulation concerns itself only with whether two symbols are the same one or a different symbol. For instance the idea that the symbol foo is a prefix of the symbol foobar is invalid. We may only ask whether foo and foobar are the same entity or different. A basic operation in symbol manipulation is semantics-preserving substitution. If Jevko is based on symbols then [a b b] can be replaced by [a c c] without loss of semantics. In fact, all we are doing is changing the name of the b symbol; its identity remains the same. Suppose there is some application built on Jevko in which [a=b b] cannot be replaced by [a=b c] without destroying the semantics; suppose it has to be that in that application, if b is replaced by c, then [a=b b] must turn into [a=c c], in order to preserve a relationship that holds between a=b and b. That application has then destroyed the concept of a Jevko symbol, because a=b isn't functioning like an atom any more. It's functioning like two symbols a= b or possibly three symbols a = b. Thus if a=b is really one symbol, and not a string of three characters, then no legitimate, Jevko-respecting application of Jevko can do anything like this, namely treat a=b as being syntax which codes for two or three atoms. But that's a lie, because Jevko is intended for doing that sort of thing like it's going out of style. For instance, in this code: https://github.com/jevko/jevkodom.js/blob/master/jevkoToHtml.js https://github.com/jevko/jevkodom.js/blob/master/jevkoToHtml... can you explain what mid.endsWith('=')? "attr": "tag" is doing? It sure looks to me like it's asking whether a symbol (i.e. indivisible atom) ends with an equal sign, which is semantic gibberish.

djedr 4y ago
This analysis would be valid if we were talking about lambda calculus or a Lisp with square brackets. Jevko isn't that. It's not a programming language[0]. It's just syntax, with even less semantics than JSON and even simpler than S-expressions. There are no symbols or references in Jevko. It's important here to separate syntax and semantics. S-expressions are not Lisp. They are its syntax. Semantics is a separate matter. @gnulinux and @User23 have it right. Strings are an implementation detail. You could store the parsed text as numbers or you could Gödel-encode the entire tree into one giant number. Saying then that Jevko is nothing but numbers is conflating things. --- Just to clarify, in Jevko `[b b]` doesn't parse to what your description implies you think it does. `b[b]` or `[[b][b]]` would be closer to that. If you are interested in the details, please have a look at the specification or diagrams: * https://jevko.org/spec.html https://jevko.org/spec.html * https://jevko.org/diagram.xhtml https://jevko.org/diagram.xhtml From there you should be able to easily write a parser in your favorite Lisp! ;) --- > can you explain what mid.endsWith('=')? "attr": "tag" > is doing? It sure looks to me like it's asking whether a symbol (i.e. indivisible atom) ends with an equal sign, which is semantic gibberish. There are no symbols or indivisible atoms here. What's happening here is parsing. `jevkoToHtml` is a kind of parser-transpiler which operates on a syntax tree, rather than a sequence of characters or tokens. The syntax tree is the output of an earlier stage of parsing, done by the Jevko parser. So you can think of this as multi-pass parsing, by analogy with multi-pass compilation. At the same time as this second pass of parsing is happening, translation to HTML is happening as well. Hope this clarifies things! --- [0] To clearly see the point, here is a toy programming language which uses Jevko as its syntax: https://github.com/jevko/jevkalk https://github.com/jevko/jevkalk
- kazinator 4y ago
  > Semantics is a separate matter. I agree; and symbol is a semantic entity, not a syntactic one. S-expressions do not have symbols, they have tokens which become symbols when read into the machine. Tokens are clumps of characters. i.e. strings. > There are no symbols or references in Jevko. > @gnulinux and @User23 have it right. Those two are insisting that texts are symbols in Jevko, so the above two statements contradict each other. E.g. gnulinux> You're not understanding. These are not strings. These are symbols. User23> Jevko language [...] has no strings. For example, a Common Lisp hosted Jevko parser implementation might choose to represent Jevko text objects as symbols. > What's happening here is parsing. `jevkoToHtml` is a kind of parser-transpiler which operates on a syntax tree, rather than a sequence of characters or tokens. That is obviously false. It's operating on a nested list of strings, whereby it's making a semantic decision whether a string in a certain position of a nested item in the structure ends in the = character. In other words the syntax is character-level. The strings themselves have syntax, which is made of characters. That's in the Jevko specification. Characters are the atoms in Jevko. The = character that the code is looking for is a %x3D element. It's right here: https://github.com/jevko/specifications/blob/master/draft-standard-grammar.md https://github.com/jevko/specifications/blob/master/draft-st... The = character is %x3D. An %x3D is Character. A Character is one of the kinds of Symbol (the other being Digraph). A Symbol is a constituent of Text. Text generates a Prefix or Suffix. A Suffix alone can be a Jevko due to this rule: Jevko ::= *Subjevko Suffix Thus, formally Jevko does have Symbols: a Symbol is a Character or Digraph. A Text is a sequence of Symbols, which are Characters or Digraphs. It is in no way an atom. A sequence of characters or diagraphs is a string.