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> They were fired for cause, namely, insubordination The idea that you can order someone to perform a medical procedure because they work for you is disguistin

> They were fired for cause, namely, insubordination The idea that you can order someone to perform a medical procedure because they work for you is disguisting. Where does this end?

ezekiel68 4y ago
Not at all. We require school children to undergo medical procedures before they may participate in city-funded education. The tone of alarm is unwarranted. This is not a slippery slope situation.
- ls15 4y ago
  > This is not a slippery slope situation. I think it is. Governments aren't that trustworthy if you ask me.
  - Maursault 4y ago
    The paranoia is a bit too late. Emergency powers were established by Congress a century ago, and at least 60 national emergencies have been declared since. In New York State, a state of emergency declaration permits the governor to direct local officials and state agencies, and to suspend state and local law or regulation to facilitate disaster response efforts. If there ever was a slippery slope, it has long since been descended many times.
    - ls15 4y ago
      I am negotiating my life, not the ones of my great-grandparents.
      - Maursault 4y ago
        Then you should have been there back in March of 1789. Government is for those who participate, not those who whine about it after the fact. You certainly aren't required to abide by laws or social contract if you don't value the liberties and protections granted by the Constitution and US citizenship.
        ls15 4y ago
        Were you?
        Maursault 4y ago
        I was in the cafeteria selling smokes.
Maursault 4y ago
> Where does it end? It ends with your survival. Vaccination isn't surgery, it's an extremely minor medical procedure that reduces or eliminates the risk of contracting a disease. During a deadly global pandemic, refusing vaccination is nothing short of suicidal. 97M Americans were infected and more than a million died. There were over 630M cases globally, and over 6.5M died due to COVID. The People have the stronger right to not be infected with COVID by you than your right to be infected. No one ever has any right to spread infection, not even libertarians.
- gruez 4y ago
  >It ends with your survival. Vaccination isn't surgery, it's an extremely minor medical procedure that reduces or eliminates the risk of contracting a disease. During a deadly global pandemic, refusing vaccination is nothing short of suicidal. 97M Americans were infected and more than a million died. There were over 630M cases globally, and over 6.5M died due to COVID. Way to dodge the question. Also, I think you're missing the point. I don't think OP or most other anti vax mandate people think that the covid vaccine is a risky procedure, or that the public is better off on net for it. They're against it because it sets a precedent for government to mandate medical procedures. >No one ever has any right to spread infection, not even libertarians. You literally do, though. It's not against the law to get on a packed subway while you're sick as a dog, for instance.
  - Maursault 4y ago
    > They're against it because it sets a precedent for government to mandate medical procedures. This is just a part of what is so ridiculous about their objections and reveals ignorance and a misunderstanding of law. The government isn't required to establish precedent here because it is already the law of the land.[1][2][3] That said, precedent has been very well established for a very long time.[4] [1] https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title50/chapter34&edition=prelim https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title50/cha... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Emergencies_Act#Emergency_powers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Emergencies_Act#Emerg... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Health_Service_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Health_Service_Act [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_emergencies_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_emergencies_i...
stjohnswarts 4y ago
What happens when a virus comes along that kills at a higher rate, say 35%? You're saying people should be willing to work alongside others when there is a 35% chance of a pandemic level virus killing you because a peer thinks science is dumb?
- briandon 4y ago
  I think you've gotten your hypothetical scenario a bit scrambled. Given a safe and effective vaccine, you and your vaccinated coworkers would either not become infected at all or would experience very mild symptoms and be left with supercharged immunity (immunity from your vaccine + immunity from infection). Your dumb, science-hating coworker would suffer much worse symptoms and maybe die (a little over 1 in 3 chance given the 35% fatality you postulate). Your vaccine, first and foremost, is supposed to protect you. But with covid that is not at all what we are seeing. This was especially painfully clear in places with strongly-enforced "vaccine passport" regimes during the period they were in force before being abandoned. The vaccinated spent time with other vaccinated and were infecting and being infected by one another and birthing new, more transmissible vaccine-evading variants of the virus. Vaccine efficacy actual goes negative (i.e. vaccine recipients more susceptible than unvaccinated persons after a few months: "Vaccine effectiveness against SARS-CoV-2 infection with the Omicron or Delta variants following a two-dose or booster BNT162b2 or mRNA-1273 vaccination series: A Danish cohort study" https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.20.21267966v2 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.20.21267966v...) and vaccine recipients are infected and infectious for at least as long as unvaccinated persons (e.g. "Duration of Shedding of Culturable Virus in SARS-CoV-2 Omicron (BA.1) Infection" in NEJM https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35767428/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35767428/).

> They were fired for cause, namely, insubordination The idea that you can order someone to perform a medical procedure because they work for you is disguisting. Where does this end?

ezekiel68 4y ago

Not at all. We require school children to undergo medical procedures before they may participate in city-funded education. The tone of alarm is unwarranted. This is not a slippery slope situation.

ls15 4y ago
> This is not a slippery slope situation. I think it is. Governments aren't that trustworthy if you ask me.
- Maursault 4y ago
  The paranoia is a bit too late. Emergency powers were established by Congress a century ago, and at least 60 national emergencies have been declared since. In New York State, a state of emergency declaration permits the governor to direct local officials and state agencies, and to suspend state and local law or regulation to facilitate disaster response efforts. If there ever was a slippery slope, it has long since been descended many times.
  - ls15 4y ago
    I am negotiating my life, not the ones of my great-grandparents.
    - Maursault 4y ago
      Then you should have been there back in March of 1789. Government is for those who participate, not those who whine about it after the fact. You certainly aren't required to abide by laws or social contract if you don't value the liberties and protections granted by the Constitution and US citizenship.
      - ls15 4y ago
        Were you?
        Maursault 4y ago
        I was in the cafeteria selling smokes.

Maursault 4y ago

> Where does it end? It ends with your survival. Vaccination isn't surgery, it's an extremely minor medical procedure that reduces or eliminates the risk of contracting a disease. During a deadly global pandemic, refusing vaccination is nothing short of suicidal. 97M Americans were infected and more than a million died. There were over 630M cases globally, and over 6.5M died due to COVID. The People have the stronger right to not be infected with COVID by you than your right to be infected. No one ever has any right to spread infection, not even libertarians.

gruez 4y ago
>It ends with your survival. Vaccination isn't surgery, it's an extremely minor medical procedure that reduces or eliminates the risk of contracting a disease. During a deadly global pandemic, refusing vaccination is nothing short of suicidal. 97M Americans were infected and more than a million died. There were over 630M cases globally, and over 6.5M died due to COVID. Way to dodge the question. Also, I think you're missing the point. I don't think OP or most other anti vax mandate people think that the covid vaccine is a risky procedure, or that the public is better off on net for it. They're against it because it sets a precedent for government to mandate medical procedures. >No one ever has any right to spread infection, not even libertarians. You literally do, though. It's not against the law to get on a packed subway while you're sick as a dog, for instance.
- Maursault 4y ago
  > They're against it because it sets a precedent for government to mandate medical procedures. This is just a part of what is so ridiculous about their objections and reveals ignorance and a misunderstanding of law. The government isn't required to establish precedent here because it is already the law of the land.[1][2][3] That said, precedent has been very well established for a very long time.[4] [1] https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title50/chapter34&edition=prelim https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title50/cha... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Emergencies_Act#Emergency_powers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Emergencies_Act#Emerg... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Health_Service_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Health_Service_Act [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_emergencies_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_emergencies_i...

stjohnswarts 4y ago

What happens when a virus comes along that kills at a higher rate, say 35%? You're saying people should be willing to work alongside others when there is a 35% chance of a pandemic level virus killing you because a peer thinks science is dumb?

briandon 4y ago
I think you've gotten your hypothetical scenario a bit scrambled. Given a safe and effective vaccine, you and your vaccinated coworkers would either not become infected at all or would experience very mild symptoms and be left with supercharged immunity (immunity from your vaccine + immunity from infection). Your dumb, science-hating coworker would suffer much worse symptoms and maybe die (a little over 1 in 3 chance given the 35% fatality you postulate). Your vaccine, first and foremost, is supposed to protect you. But with covid that is not at all what we are seeing. This was especially painfully clear in places with strongly-enforced "vaccine passport" regimes during the period they were in force before being abandoned. The vaccinated spent time with other vaccinated and were infecting and being infected by one another and birthing new, more transmissible vaccine-evading variants of the virus. Vaccine efficacy actual goes negative (i.e. vaccine recipients more susceptible than unvaccinated persons after a few months: "Vaccine effectiveness against SARS-CoV-2 infection with the Omicron or Delta variants following a two-dose or booster BNT162b2 or mRNA-1273 vaccination series: A Danish cohort study" https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.20.21267966v2 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.20.21267966v...) and vaccine recipients are infected and infectious for at least as long as unvaccinated persons (e.g. "Duration of Shedding of Culturable Virus in SARS-CoV-2 Omicron (BA.1) Infection" in NEJM https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35767428/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35767428/).