7 ms·

I think feedback is overrated. If somebody can't read the myriad of indirect and nonverbal communication to understand whether they are pulling their weight and

I think feedback is overrated. If somebody can't read the myriad of indirect and nonverbal communication to understand whether they are pulling their weight and meeting expectations, there is little words can fix. Feedback only works if the addressed issue is isolated and not symptomatic of a broader poor judgment problem.

motoxpro 4y ago
I guess this gives me some insight that some people over the course of my life will want me to read non-verbal cues instead of using words to communicate.
- club_tropical 4y ago
  *most people
baxtr 4y ago
So you suggest great devs not only do great coding but are also mind readers?
- club_tropical 4y ago
  No. “Mind reader” implies someone is reaching into deep dark corners of your mind and figuring out things that are never externalized. There is enormous communication that is completely clear and unambiguous, but not verbal in the incredibly direct and explicit, almost like a legal contract-y way people pushing back seem to want. You are expected to pick up on those. An employee who constantly needs you collapse all these dimensions into the verbal sphere is almost never worth it.
  - baxtr 4y ago
    Could you give an example maybe? I really struggle to understand what you mean
Swizec 4y ago
Cultures vary and only words can bridge the gap. It took me years to figure out that “It’s not my favorite” is Californian for “I hate this”. At least months to realize that “We should do X” means “You should do X” and that “Would you mind checking Y” is a direct request with expectations attached.
- ttoinou 4y ago
  Depends on the culture, cf. The Culture Map from Erin Meyer
  - hef19898 4y ago
    One of the worst books I have ever had the "pleasure" to read.
- club_tropical 4y ago
  And yet, your examples are when words did not bridge the gap. You think "You should do X" is more clear, but to the Californian in question, that framing would sound very harsh. If they gave you "feedback", the manager would think they expressed dissatisfaction, while you'd come out of the same meeting thinking things are great. Human language is not computer code and an employee that takes years to understand that while they are not meeting expectations is not worth it. Also, your examples are still fairly isolated - ultimately it was almost like using an outdated dictionary where words map to different things. Once you had the right "translation", the issue was fixed. That's not typical for employer feedback scenarios. Often the manager just wants the employee to be more diligent, attentive, have better Pareto 80/20 judgment, etc. You can't teach that to someone who doesn't get it.
  - Swizec 4y ago
    Yes and the quickest way to solve that problem was to have a conversation about it. Not by ignoring the issue and hoping things magically work out. “Hey it looks like we’re miscommunicating, what do you hear when I say X?” is a great way to start. Much much better than thinking quietly to yourself something like “Gosh that engineer is so dumb why don’t they ever do what I ask???” and never telling the employee that there’s a problem. Ultimately people can’t fix a problem they don’t know exists. And despite their best efforts, they can’t read your mind.
Invictus0 4y ago
What if your colleague is autistic and struggles to understand indirect and nonverbal communication?
- club_tropical 4y ago
  It it’s a colleague, I’d limit my exposure. If I am manager, I wouldn’t hire such a person or fire asap. Inability to process indirect and nonverbal communication - aka 90% of human communication - is a major energy sap and drag to anyone interacting with this person. The thing that only responds to explicit verbal instruction is called a robot. When hiring, people expect to be hiring a human with good (albeit ineffable) judgment, not a robot with blank slate.
jampa 4y ago
Sometimes people don't understand there is a problem unless is very clear. Culture also plays into the issue, I work with international teams, and the English needs to be very direct. Like another comment says people from California are more subtle. OTOH my experience working with people from Eastern Europe is that in their culture there are not many nuances in conversation, they don't give it, so they don't expect it as well.
- club_tropical 4y ago
  When an employee doesn't work out, it is virtually never because, had you used different words, the issue would have been fixed. I get it, there are other cultures, some say "why don't you look into X" while others say "do X" - but if it takes years to calibrate while projects are not done and deadlines get missed, there is a much bigger problem.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    You expect something from me, tell me. I don't like to guess and I am no telepath, so withou you telling me there is no way for me to know. Left to my own devices, I do what I consider the "right" thing. And without contrary feedback, I will continue to consider this to be right thing. People usually do not do wrong things, or behave like a*holes, intentionally. Not giving feedback is just lazy, and borderline cowardize because it is an easy way to avoid conflicts.
    - club_tropical 4y ago
      Not getting into pointless conflicts is not cowardice; it is prudence. I am not conflict avoidant, but I’m not going to hand hold someone - double checking their work and giving feedback takes a huge amount of effort. It can only really be done a few times, at the beginning of a person’s employment. Ideally, the employee’s “right thing” and the manager’s “right thing” are already well-aligned and “feedback” is more like “finetuning”. If there is a large gap between the “right thing”s - aka what is considered good judgment, this situation is incorrigible with verbal feedback. None of this is to imply malice (behave like a-holes), just that there are so few hours in a day, and trying to get an employee to pick up on everything through individualized verbal feedback is very taxing.
sanderjd 4y ago
This honestly sounds like cowardice to me. Maybe you're right that explicit feedback is overrated; I don't know. But what is the drawback to providing it? Is there one, besides a fear of awkwardness? Even if the upside isn't strong, there is no real downside, so it's worth doing.
- club_tropical 4y ago
  The drawback is that most of the time, words are highly reductive and inferior to indirect and nonverbal communication. They are only useful if the issue is extremely isolated or about adding/removing things off someone's plate. Virtually every time when an employee doesn't work out, it's because they used bad judgment. Feedback is useless for that. So for example, you will ask them to write documentation and they might technically write documentation, but maybe they write it unclear and don't even recognize it as such. Now, do you want to teach someone the concept of "clarity" like an English teacher? No! If they can't understand what level of clarity is needed based on other code in the company or other cues, it is a manifestation of a judgment problem. Of course working together won't be instantly smooth like a Swiss watch movement, and you can make adjustments, but there cannot be a big judgement gap. The employee has to be able to recognize what you mean by "clear" without a full blown multi-year English lesson. If they consistently think their work as a "first draft", to be double-checked always by you and given specific feedback over, that is a judgment problem. Massive time-waste.
  - sanderjd 4y ago
    > So for example, you will ask them to write documentation and they might technically write documentation, but maybe they write it unclear and don't even recognize it as such. Now, do you want to teach someone the concept of "clarity" like an English teacher? Yep, if you're that person's manager, what you do is you tell them, unambiguously, that the documentation they wrote was not clear, and you tell them why, and you direct them to examples of clear documentation and other resources that can help improve their ability to write documentation. That's the job! If you don't want to do the job of a good manager, that's fine, but you're doing a disservice to the people who work for you. And, weirdly, you seem to be patting yourself on the back for it. But make no mistake: being unwilling to mentor and teach is actually just bad management. There are lots of books you can read to improve your management skills!

motoxpro 4y ago

I guess this gives me some insight that some people over the course of my life will want me to read non-verbal cues instead of using words to communicate.

club_tropical 4y ago
*most people

baxtr 4y ago

So you suggest great devs not only do great coding but are also mind readers?

club_tropical 4y ago
No. “Mind reader” implies someone is reaching into deep dark corners of your mind and figuring out things that are never externalized. There is enormous communication that is completely clear and unambiguous, but not verbal in the incredibly direct and explicit, almost like a legal contract-y way people pushing back seem to want. You are expected to pick up on those. An employee who constantly needs you collapse all these dimensions into the verbal sphere is almost never worth it.
- baxtr 4y ago
  Could you give an example maybe? I really struggle to understand what you mean

Swizec 4y ago

Cultures vary and only words can bridge the gap. It took me years to figure out that “It’s not my favorite” is Californian for “I hate this”. At least months to realize that “We should do X” means “You should do X” and that “Would you mind checking Y” is a direct request with expectations attached.

ttoinou 4y ago
Depends on the culture, cf. The Culture Map from Erin Meyer
- hef19898 4y ago
  One of the worst books I have ever had the "pleasure" to read.
club_tropical 4y ago
And yet, your examples are when words did not bridge the gap. You think "You should do X" is more clear, but to the Californian in question, that framing would sound very harsh. If they gave you "feedback", the manager would think they expressed dissatisfaction, while you'd come out of the same meeting thinking things are great. Human language is not computer code and an employee that takes years to understand that while they are not meeting expectations is not worth it. Also, your examples are still fairly isolated - ultimately it was almost like using an outdated dictionary where words map to different things. Once you had the right "translation", the issue was fixed. That's not typical for employer feedback scenarios. Often the manager just wants the employee to be more diligent, attentive, have better Pareto 80/20 judgment, etc. You can't teach that to someone who doesn't get it.
- Swizec 4y ago
  Yes and the quickest way to solve that problem was to have a conversation about it. Not by ignoring the issue and hoping things magically work out. “Hey it looks like we’re miscommunicating, what do you hear when I say X?” is a great way to start. Much much better than thinking quietly to yourself something like “Gosh that engineer is so dumb why don’t they ever do what I ask???” and never telling the employee that there’s a problem. Ultimately people can’t fix a problem they don’t know exists. And despite their best efforts, they can’t read your mind.

Invictus0 4y ago

What if your colleague is autistic and struggles to understand indirect and nonverbal communication?

club_tropical 4y ago
It it’s a colleague, I’d limit my exposure. If I am manager, I wouldn’t hire such a person or fire asap. Inability to process indirect and nonverbal communication - aka 90% of human communication - is a major energy sap and drag to anyone interacting with this person. The thing that only responds to explicit verbal instruction is called a robot. When hiring, people expect to be hiring a human with good (albeit ineffable) judgment, not a robot with blank slate.

jampa 4y ago

Sometimes people don't understand there is a problem unless is very clear. Culture also plays into the issue, I work with international teams, and the English needs to be very direct. Like another comment says people from California are more subtle. OTOH my experience working with people from Eastern Europe is that in their culture there are not many nuances in conversation, they don't give it, so they don't expect it as well.

club_tropical 4y ago
When an employee doesn't work out, it is virtually never because, had you used different words, the issue would have been fixed. I get it, there are other cultures, some say "why don't you look into X" while others say "do X" - but if it takes years to calibrate while projects are not done and deadlines get missed, there is a much bigger problem.
- hef19898 4y ago
  You expect something from me, tell me. I don't like to guess and I am no telepath, so withou you telling me there is no way for me to know. Left to my own devices, I do what I consider the "right" thing. And without contrary feedback, I will continue to consider this to be right thing. People usually do not do wrong things, or behave like a*holes, intentionally. Not giving feedback is just lazy, and borderline cowardize because it is an easy way to avoid conflicts.
  - club_tropical 4y ago
    Not getting into pointless conflicts is not cowardice; it is prudence. I am not conflict avoidant, but I’m not going to hand hold someone - double checking their work and giving feedback takes a huge amount of effort. It can only really be done a few times, at the beginning of a person’s employment. Ideally, the employee’s “right thing” and the manager’s “right thing” are already well-aligned and “feedback” is more like “finetuning”. If there is a large gap between the “right thing”s - aka what is considered good judgment, this situation is incorrigible with verbal feedback. None of this is to imply malice (behave like a-holes), just that there are so few hours in a day, and trying to get an employee to pick up on everything through individualized verbal feedback is very taxing.

sanderjd 4y ago

This honestly sounds like cowardice to me. Maybe you're right that explicit feedback is overrated; I don't know. But what is the drawback to providing it? Is there one, besides a fear of awkwardness? Even if the upside isn't strong, there is no real downside, so it's worth doing.

club_tropical 4y ago
The drawback is that most of the time, words are highly reductive and inferior to indirect and nonverbal communication. They are only useful if the issue is extremely isolated or about adding/removing things off someone's plate. Virtually every time when an employee doesn't work out, it's because they used bad judgment. Feedback is useless for that. So for example, you will ask them to write documentation and they might technically write documentation, but maybe they write it unclear and don't even recognize it as such. Now, do you want to teach someone the concept of "clarity" like an English teacher? No! If they can't understand what level of clarity is needed based on other code in the company or other cues, it is a manifestation of a judgment problem. Of course working together won't be instantly smooth like a Swiss watch movement, and you can make adjustments, but there cannot be a big judgement gap. The employee has to be able to recognize what you mean by "clear" without a full blown multi-year English lesson. If they consistently think their work as a "first draft", to be double-checked always by you and given specific feedback over, that is a judgment problem. Massive time-waste.
- sanderjd 4y ago
  > So for example, you will ask them to write documentation and they might technically write documentation, but maybe they write it unclear and don't even recognize it as such. Now, do you want to teach someone the concept of "clarity" like an English teacher? Yep, if you're that person's manager, what you do is you tell them, unambiguously, that the documentation they wrote was not clear, and you tell them why, and you direct them to examples of clear documentation and other resources that can help improve their ability to write documentation. That's the job! If you don't want to do the job of a good manager, that's fine, but you're doing a disservice to the people who work for you. And, weirdly, you seem to be patting yourself on the back for it. But make no mistake: being unwilling to mentor and teach is actually just bad management. There are lots of books you can read to improve your management skills!