6 ms·

I’d like to see them held accountable. Every person who was affected by an unconstitutional law should have the ability to sue for damages arising from the inte

I’d like to see them held accountable. Every person who was affected by an unconstitutional law should have the ability to sue for damages arising from the intentional abridgment of their constitutional rights. Our rights would remain more intact if lawmakers actually faced personal financial penalties when they try to deny us the already very few rights afforded to us by the constitution.

crazygringo 4y ago
How are you going to handle it when the Supreme Court reverses itself on decisions decades later? Or even just a few years later when a new Justice is added? Does all the money from damages get returned, with interest and accounting for inflation? Law is never settled and courts disagree and reverse frequently... So I don't think you've really thought this through... :) Including who is going to pay for all those damages, which is going to be the taxpayers, so hello much higher taxes! ;)
- ls15 4y ago
  Three strikes. Politician voted three times for laws that later were deemed unconstitutional by the SC, so the politician can only be a politian again after 30 years and some mandatory training and test. What is not fair about this?
  - crazygringo 4y ago
    What's the punishment for that SC when a later SC overrules it, three new justices later? And while we're at it, are we also creating a three strikes law for lower courts that get overruled by the SC three times? And what about the courts below them? What if they get overruled by a higher court... which in turn gets overruled by the SC? I can't wait to keep track of all this ;)
    - ls15 4y ago
      The biggest risk would be that a politician will be wrongfully denied participation when they actually were fit for the job. That's a smaller price to pay than living with a politician who works against the constitution.
      - govg 4y ago
        Blind adherence to a document written ~200 years ago, in a world that has vastly changed cultural and social norms is incredibly short sighted. People elect politicians based on trust, and if the politicians decide to pass a law that is the will of the people manifested.
        ls15 4y ago
        What are the options if that trust is abused? People emotionally trick other people into voting for them and then do whatever is on their agenda during their mandate.
        6510 4y ago
        You put up with it until the next election where a new rep abuses you the same way. That way you get the will of the people written into law your whole life long.
        govg 4y ago
        There is no universal solution to "emotionally trick other people into voting for them". If the politicians don't follow up, you vote them out. The problem in the US stems from lack of choice, owing to the entrenched 2 party system. Almost every other country around the world has more than 2 options, and there are many examples where democracy is functional. If you're assuming that every voter is intelligent enough to make their own voting decisions, then no one is being "tricked". And assuming to the contrary puts you on a slippery slope of who gets to decide if someone was "tricked" vs not.
        ls15 4y ago
        I assume that many people find out themselves that they've been tricked shortly after the election and almost 4 years before the next election, when the first promises are broken. > If the politicians don't follow up, you vote them out. That's what I think where it lacks options. You cannot really vote politicians out. You can only vote politicians in. In some cases you can even only vote for parties, not for people. The ancient Greeks used to vote people out. I would at least want to be able to vote for party X, but not this guy, not this other guy and definitely not that guy who was the worst liar over the last 20 years, but somehow managed to stay afloat every time.
  - arrosenberg 4y ago
    The current Supreme Court is a right wing nightmare, so that sounds like an efficient way to get all the liberals out of government. Hard pass, what is fair about letting unelected judges determine who I get to vote for?
    - ls15 4y ago
      Ok, fair point, but how else can we get politicians to behave better? I don't think that assigning immense powers for four years without personal repercussions for bad actors has worked very well.
      - arrosenberg 4y ago
        Its worked better than literally every other system that has been tried, though money definitely corrupts it. House members are elected every other year and have plenty of power if they want to use it.
- muaytimbo 4y ago
  you didn't read my comment in full, note the use of the word "personal" financial penalties.
- muaytimbo 4y ago
  I guess the politicians at a loss could try to sue each individual plaintiff that was previously paid out, but that seems improbable. That would be a good thing in practice, if you toe up to the line so close that multiple courts overrule each other you lose regardless. That would help keep our rights intact.
hash872 4y ago
I mean that's just ridiculous. 'Unconstitutional' is incredibly vague & subjective (and incredibly political), to the degree that most developed countries don't allow judges to overturn laws based on this at all. (1) As an example of how subjective 'unconstitutional' is, consider that different levels of the judiciary disagree with each other about whether a law is constitutional or not all the time. It's very, very common for one appeals court to declare that a law is in accordance with the constitution or not, and then a higher level to disagree completely. If judges who've devoted their entire lives to the field can't agree and constantly overrule each other.... 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_sovereignty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_sovereignty

crazygringo 4y ago

How are you going to handle it when the Supreme Court reverses itself on decisions decades later? Or even just a few years later when a new Justice is added? Does all the money from damages get returned, with interest and accounting for inflation? Law is never settled and courts disagree and reverse frequently... So I don't think you've really thought this through... :) Including who is going to pay for all those damages, which is going to be the taxpayers, so hello much higher taxes! ;)

ls15 4y ago
Three strikes. Politician voted three times for laws that later were deemed unconstitutional by the SC, so the politician can only be a politian again after 30 years and some mandatory training and test. What is not fair about this?
- crazygringo 4y ago
  What's the punishment for that SC when a later SC overrules it, three new justices later? And while we're at it, are we also creating a three strikes law for lower courts that get overruled by the SC three times? And what about the courts below them? What if they get overruled by a higher court... which in turn gets overruled by the SC? I can't wait to keep track of all this ;)
  - ls15 4y ago
    The biggest risk would be that a politician will be wrongfully denied participation when they actually were fit for the job. That's a smaller price to pay than living with a politician who works against the constitution.
    - govg 4y ago
      Blind adherence to a document written ~200 years ago, in a world that has vastly changed cultural and social norms is incredibly short sighted. People elect politicians based on trust, and if the politicians decide to pass a law that is the will of the people manifested.
      - ls15 4y ago
        What are the options if that trust is abused? People emotionally trick other people into voting for them and then do whatever is on their agenda during their mandate.
        6510 4y ago
        You put up with it until the next election where a new rep abuses you the same way. That way you get the will of the people written into law your whole life long.
        govg 4y ago
        There is no universal solution to "emotionally trick other people into voting for them". If the politicians don't follow up, you vote them out. The problem in the US stems from lack of choice, owing to the entrenched 2 party system. Almost every other country around the world has more than 2 options, and there are many examples where democracy is functional. If you're assuming that every voter is intelligent enough to make their own voting decisions, then no one is being "tricked". And assuming to the contrary puts you on a slippery slope of who gets to decide if someone was "tricked" vs not.
        ls15 4y ago
        I assume that many people find out themselves that they've been tricked shortly after the election and almost 4 years before the next election, when the first promises are broken. > If the politicians don't follow up, you vote them out. That's what I think where it lacks options. You cannot really vote politicians out. You can only vote politicians in. In some cases you can even only vote for parties, not for people. The ancient Greeks used to vote people out. I would at least want to be able to vote for party X, but not this guy, not this other guy and definitely not that guy who was the worst liar over the last 20 years, but somehow managed to stay afloat every time.
- arrosenberg 4y ago
  The current Supreme Court is a right wing nightmare, so that sounds like an efficient way to get all the liberals out of government. Hard pass, what is fair about letting unelected judges determine who I get to vote for?
  - ls15 4y ago
    Ok, fair point, but how else can we get politicians to behave better? I don't think that assigning immense powers for four years without personal repercussions for bad actors has worked very well.
    - arrosenberg 4y ago
      Its worked better than literally every other system that has been tried, though money definitely corrupts it. House members are elected every other year and have plenty of power if they want to use it.
muaytimbo 4y ago
you didn't read my comment in full, note the use of the word "personal" financial penalties.
muaytimbo 4y ago
I guess the politicians at a loss could try to sue each individual plaintiff that was previously paid out, but that seems improbable. That would be a good thing in practice, if you toe up to the line so close that multiple courts overrule each other you lose regardless. That would help keep our rights intact.

hash872 4y ago

I mean that's just ridiculous. 'Unconstitutional' is incredibly vague & subjective (and incredibly political), to the degree that most developed countries don't allow judges to overturn laws based on this at all. (1) As an example of how subjective 'unconstitutional' is, consider that different levels of the judiciary disagree with each other about whether a law is constitutional or not all the time. It's very, very common for one appeals court to declare that a law is in accordance with the constitution or not, and then a higher level to disagree completely. If judges who've devoted their entire lives to the field can't agree and constantly overrule each other.... 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_sovereignty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_sovereignty