5 ms·

High-Tech Cars Are Killing the Auto Repair Shop

34 points by elorant 4y ago

AtomicOrbital 4y ago
I can see a demand for a modular open hardware / open source ecosystem where the community takes ownership and drives change from these shared resources ... car review process needs to include a review of the vehicle's ease of repair outlining compliance to these industry wide open source plugNplay components
donmcronald 4y ago
It would be nice to see a focus on repairability, but I don't think that's ever going to happen. Even if we don't end up with complete parts serialization, where the manufacturers hold all the keys, the trend described in this article is unavoidable due to the complexity of systems that improve your quality of life when you're driving. IE: People want things like collision warning systems. A big part of the issue is the manufacturers don't care if a repair procedure is too complex or if the equipment required is too expensive. That's a benefit to them because it means less independent repair shops and dealer networks will simply pass that cost on to the customer because customers have no alternatives. My family has always purchased cars that are just off warranty, so about 5 years old, and driven them for 5-15 years. The less money we had, the longer we drove them. We've always done our own repairs. However, that's changing because there are some things we simply can't fix. My dad has never driven a vehicle that costed more than $100 per month and has always owned a vehicle that I'd consider reliable. Those days are gone. I think something that could help would be if the right to repair movement pushed for some kind of limited repair or downgraded repair mode. For example, the article talks about the complexity of doing a wheel alignment due to calibrating lane drift sensors, etc. I think vehicle owners should be able to opt out of that and simply lose those features if they're not required for the car to function. IE: Get the wheel alignment, skip the convenience features. Of course, we all know the opposite will happen. The vehicle industry will lobby the government to have those complex features become requirements "for safety" and the only option we'll get as consumers is to buy overly complex, overly expensive vehicles. I guess another option may be to rent or lease and never own anything which might be the ultimate goal of the industry regardless of complexity.
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 4y ago
  You’re phrasing these things as negatives but ignoring why they will be adopted. Safety. I don’t want to be driving on the road at all, unless it’s for sport on a closed track. Since I must, since this is America and public transportation is not profitable, I want everyone else to driving the safest vehicles possibly affordable. That lane drift sensor has prevented numerous distracted drivers from causing accidents with their negligence. Opting out of the sensors is more directly reckless than emissions defeating devices on diesels.
  - djbebs 4y ago
    If you want that, you're welcome to pay for it yourself. I dont think lot of people would reject an offer to replace their cars with a newer and safer version. But thats not why you want, is it? What you really want is for someone else to pay for your desires.
    - Red_Leaves_Flyy 4y ago
      I think you’re projecting and arguing in bad faith with this comment. Perhaps you should read the site guidelines.
      - djbebs 4y ago
        Pointing out the raw reality of the policies you're advocating for isn’t arguing in bad faith, its merely demonstrating that the rethoric you're using is disguising an entirely different reality. If I am incorrect about what I pointed out, please point out what exactly I am incorrect about so I can review and correct. If on the other hand i misunderstood your argument, then please feel free to clarify it to reflect the specifics of what you propose. I am happy to engage on the actual facts and the underlying realities of those facts.
xhkkffbf 4y ago
I would definitely encourage everyone here to get an OBD-II dongle that connects via Bluetooth to a phone app like Torque. Saved me a fortune and helped me understand just what needs to be fixed. I don't know why these OBD-II codes aren't available through the dashboard touchscreen, but that's another rant.
- BenjiWiebe 4y ago
  And for more in depth troubleshooting, use a brand -specific app such as OBD Jscan (for Jeep/Dodge/Chrysler).
- dieselgate 4y ago
  What should we do if our vehicle is from pre OBD-I era?
  - pvaldes 4y ago
    Unless you want specifically a classic car (and some are excellent in mechanics), probably buy a new car that is not 30 years old. OBD readers are expensive if you want a decent one, but save a lot of headaches.
- grecy 4y ago
  I turn my key on and off three times and any trouble codes are shown right on my Jeep’s dash.
  - jlkuester7 4y ago
    There is definitely a Jeep joke here in how they have optimized getting the error codes since it happens so often.... :) But really, that is super handy! I wonder if other makes have a similar feature that I just have never heard of or if it's a Jeep thing?
  - alamortsubite 4y ago
    This would be handy if Chrysler also let you reset the codes without a scanner. But at least a generic $15 bluetooth dongle off Amazon will still do the trick.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
neuralRiot 4y ago
Consumers increasingly prioritized features over quality now they’re surprised when cars last less and repairs cost more.
- mikestew 4y ago
  And just when, at your best approximation, did consumers have an opportunity to vote on the issue? Oh, sure, "vote with your wallet" when there's a distinct dividing line between "quality" brand over here, and "feature" brand over here. And I would be negligent not to point out that you haven't even made the case for autos being of lower quality than in the past. Evidence would indicate otherwise. IOW, laying the blame at the feet of consumers is unsupportable bollocks. They buy what's on offer, and what's on offer is what makes more money for manufacturers.
  - MichaelZuo 4y ago
    To be fair to the parent, Toyota/Lexus is perceived world-wide as the archetypical 'quality' brand whereas Mercedes is the archetypical 'feature' brand, at least in the last decade.
    - mikestew 4y ago
      That's not "fair to the parent", that refutes the parent comment. Otherwise MB would be selling more cars than Toyota. And I don't even have to look it up to know that's not true.
      - MichaelZuo 4y ago
        No? Mercedes obviously isn't the only other car manufacturer. They're are many others and they nearly all have worse 'quality' reputations. Obviously the sum total of all their sales is way higher than Toyota's.
- carrotcarrot 4y ago
  Quality is revealed over the lifetime of the vehicle, not on the showroom floor like features are. And quality cars tend to last longer, they're not a great investment for manufacturers. Besides, how are features and quality zero-sum? Can't you have both? These fancy features still make cars difficult to repair.
jbverschoor 4y ago
And car repair shops killed consumer trust in these kind of shops.
- bioemerl 4y ago
  Why do you say that? People largely trust dealers and official repair way less than third party shops.
  - jbverschoor 4y ago
    I know exactly nobody who trusts anyone in car repair / maintenance. Whether it's official dealers, garages, etc. And from my experience and of those who actually investigate this, that's a very valid thing to do.
carrotcarrot 4y ago
I'm sticking with my used 2007 Camry. Easy to repair, engine runs fine, insurance is cheap... These new features are overrated.
anm89 4y ago
Is there any argument to be made that it's impossible to meet efficiency or emissions standards without this stuff? I've always been extremely against this stuff. I'd be interested to hear a good faith defense of the other side
- briHass 4y ago
  The article is light on examples, but it talks about an 'alignment' which requires special tools because of: >Newer cars have advanced driver-assistance systems, which can keep cars in their lane, detect blind spots, and avoid collisions—functions that require a car to have a firm grasp of where it is in space. That requires repairers to calibrate the sensors and cameras in a car underpinning those advanced systems. I can't speak for all of those systems, but things like 'electronic stability control' (required in 2011) saves an estimated 2000+ lives every year. Fuel injection is obviously a huge advantage over carburetors for reliability, fuel efficiency, and squeezing more power out of an engine. Even relatively simple systems like these require numerous sensors, computer-units, and aren't easy to diagnose/fix for a shade tree mechanic with basic tools.
  - sidewndr46 4y ago
    I don't really think ABS or ESC actually saves lives. Instead of making driving safer, we adjust our driving habits such that the overall risk remains the same.
    - Eavolution 4y ago
      Yesterday some nutcase was doing about 100mph when me and other cars were doing about 50, he undertook a car in the right lane who was behind me but didnt realise there was a car in the right lane in front of me (I was in left, UK roads so left is driving lane). All is hear is the absolute screeching of brakes, if that car didn't have ABS theres no way he'd have kept it straight, and itd have probably gone into the side of me
  - anm89 4y ago
    Yeah. I mean the line feels a bit arbitrary. I'm certainly not against fuel injection or even having an ECU. The stability control stuff I guess I'd want to talk to a mechanic and understand if it comes with a maintenance or quality burden. It seems like a lot of what's being sold today goes way past these points though. Just an impression
prova_modena 4y ago
A few thoughts, from someone who is in the business of supporting 20+ year old high end vehicles. - We are already seeing many 90s-early 2010s vehicles where we cannot repair or support certain parts. One big issue is the difficulty of board-level repair on discontinued electronic parts. Most auto shops can't/won't tackle that, their comfort level is just replacing whole electronic modules. Even if you can/will do these kinds of repairs, there is zero documentation and individual components may no be longer made or have obfuscated part numbers. There are some independent specialists doing good work in this field but it's still really hit-or-miss. If manufacturers were compelled to release detailed schematics and parts lists once parts are discontinued, it would help. - Also, I see many shops struggle to run older specialized diagnostic software/hardware. For example, certain subsystems that can only be programmed with proprietary interfaces that won't run on anything newer than windows 98. Or technical documentation software that needs a hardware key attached to a parallel port. I've worked around some of this kind of stuff using VMs or preserving older hardware, but it's really tough for the average shop and not something that's easy for an independent entrepreneur to turn into a product or service. Again, mandatory open-sourcing once things are discontinued or no longer serviced by dealers would be a major help here. - Regarding the two points above, I've heard counterarguments about the average new car being much more reliable than older cars. Mechanically, this may be true, but in my experience lots of car electronic systems fail due to age, not mileage. So my prediction is that even though new cars may travel 200k miles without major mechanical malfunctions, as they age a whole cohort of these cars will be plagued with issues due to stuff like capacitors leaking, solder joints cracking, water/dust intrusion, adhesives and coatings failing etc. This will be tough on lower income buyers who previously could buy something like a used 90s Camry which provides reliable cheap transportation even today. - The article uses the common euphemism of "labor shortage" to mask what is a crisis of labor conditions and pay. The automotive repair industry in the US is undergoing a severe brain drain due to a combination of exploitative labor practices and bad pay. I'm talking about total lifetime earning potential, not just "low starting wages" mentioned in the article. The trade association representative quoted at the end is doing a lot of wishful thinking about attracting young techie folks to the industry, because the industry currently is a very raw deal for any smart young person compared to other options. I imagine we will soon see articles like these invoke "passion" and "inspiring young car enthusiasts" as the industry tries emotional appeals to gain new hires. - Ultimately, NONE of these concerns about supporting older designs or attracting talent matter to the major manufacturers. Even high end cars now are only built to last the warranty period. The ideal new car customer leases the newest model each year and never buys. Under this model, dealer techs will only need to do routine maintenance and occasional parts swapping. No diagnostic skill required. The manufacturer considers the cars essentially disposable and "someone else's problem" once they can no longer make money off leases or financing. The incentives are completely against high quality, durable, repairable cars, and this won't change without some kind of stronger right-to-repair regulation.

34 points by elorant 4y ago

I can see a demand for a modular open hardware / open source ecosystem where the community takes ownership and drives change from these shared resources ... car review process needs to include a review of the vehicle's ease of repair outlining compliance to these industry wide open source plugNplay components

donmcronald 4y ago

It would be nice to see a focus on repairability, but I don't think that's ever going to happen. Even if we don't end up with complete parts serialization, where the manufacturers hold all the keys, the trend described in this article is unavoidable due to the complexity of systems that improve your quality of life when you're driving. IE: People want things like collision warning systems. A big part of the issue is the manufacturers don't care if a repair procedure is too complex or if the equipment required is too expensive. That's a benefit to them because it means less independent repair shops and dealer networks will simply pass that cost on to the customer because customers have no alternatives. My family has always purchased cars that are just off warranty, so about 5 years old, and driven them for 5-15 years. The less money we had, the longer we drove them. We've always done our own repairs. However, that's changing because there are some things we simply can't fix. My dad has never driven a vehicle that costed more than $100 per month and has always owned a vehicle that I'd consider reliable. Those days are gone. I think something that could help would be if the right to repair movement pushed for some kind of limited repair or downgraded repair mode. For example, the article talks about the complexity of doing a wheel alignment due to calibrating lane drift sensors, etc. I think vehicle owners should be able to opt out of that and simply lose those features if they're not required for the car to function. IE: Get the wheel alignment, skip the convenience features. Of course, we all know the opposite will happen. The vehicle industry will lobby the government to have those complex features become requirements "for safety" and the only option we'll get as consumers is to buy overly complex, overly expensive vehicles. I guess another option may be to rent or lease and never own anything which might be the ultimate goal of the industry regardless of complexity.

Red_Leaves_Flyy 4y ago
You’re phrasing these things as negatives but ignoring why they will be adopted. Safety. I don’t want to be driving on the road at all, unless it’s for sport on a closed track. Since I must, since this is America and public transportation is not profitable, I want everyone else to driving the safest vehicles possibly affordable. That lane drift sensor has prevented numerous distracted drivers from causing accidents with their negligence. Opting out of the sensors is more directly reckless than emissions defeating devices on diesels.
- djbebs 4y ago
  If you want that, you're welcome to pay for it yourself. I dont think lot of people would reject an offer to replace their cars with a newer and safer version. But thats not why you want, is it? What you really want is for someone else to pay for your desires.
  - Red_Leaves_Flyy 4y ago
    I think you’re projecting and arguing in bad faith with this comment. Perhaps you should read the site guidelines.
    - djbebs 4y ago
      Pointing out the raw reality of the policies you're advocating for isn’t arguing in bad faith, its merely demonstrating that the rethoric you're using is disguising an entirely different reality. If I am incorrect about what I pointed out, please point out what exactly I am incorrect about so I can review and correct. If on the other hand i misunderstood your argument, then please feel free to clarify it to reflect the specifics of what you propose. I am happy to engage on the actual facts and the underlying realities of those facts.

xhkkffbf 4y ago

I would definitely encourage everyone here to get an OBD-II dongle that connects via Bluetooth to a phone app like Torque. Saved me a fortune and helped me understand just what needs to be fixed. I don't know why these OBD-II codes aren't available through the dashboard touchscreen, but that's another rant.

BenjiWiebe 4y ago
And for more in depth troubleshooting, use a brand -specific app such as OBD Jscan (for Jeep/Dodge/Chrysler).
dieselgate 4y ago
What should we do if our vehicle is from pre OBD-I era?
- pvaldes 4y ago
  Unless you want specifically a classic car (and some are excellent in mechanics), probably buy a new car that is not 30 years old. OBD readers are expensive if you want a decent one, but save a lot of headaches.
grecy 4y ago
I turn my key on and off three times and any trouble codes are shown right on my Jeep’s dash.
- jlkuester7 4y ago
  There is definitely a Jeep joke here in how they have optimized getting the error codes since it happens so often.... :) But really, that is super handy! I wonder if other makes have a similar feature that I just have never heard of or if it's a Jeep thing?
- alamortsubite 4y ago
  This would be handy if Chrysler also let you reset the codes without a scanner. But at least a generic $15 bluetooth dongle off Amazon will still do the trick.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

neuralRiot 4y ago

Consumers increasingly prioritized features over quality now they’re surprised when cars last less and repairs cost more.

mikestew 4y ago
And just when, at your best approximation, did consumers have an opportunity to vote on the issue? Oh, sure, "vote with your wallet" when there's a distinct dividing line between "quality" brand over here, and "feature" brand over here. And I would be negligent not to point out that you haven't even made the case for autos being of lower quality than in the past. Evidence would indicate otherwise. IOW, laying the blame at the feet of consumers is unsupportable bollocks. They buy what's on offer, and what's on offer is what makes more money for manufacturers.
- MichaelZuo 4y ago
  To be fair to the parent, Toyota/Lexus is perceived world-wide as the archetypical 'quality' brand whereas Mercedes is the archetypical 'feature' brand, at least in the last decade.
  - mikestew 4y ago
    That's not "fair to the parent", that refutes the parent comment. Otherwise MB would be selling more cars than Toyota. And I don't even have to look it up to know that's not true.
    - MichaelZuo 4y ago
      No? Mercedes obviously isn't the only other car manufacturer. They're are many others and they nearly all have worse 'quality' reputations. Obviously the sum total of all their sales is way higher than Toyota's.
carrotcarrot 4y ago
Quality is revealed over the lifetime of the vehicle, not on the showroom floor like features are. And quality cars tend to last longer, they're not a great investment for manufacturers. Besides, how are features and quality zero-sum? Can't you have both? These fancy features still make cars difficult to repair.

jbverschoor 4y ago

And car repair shops killed consumer trust in these kind of shops.

bioemerl 4y ago
Why do you say that? People largely trust dealers and official repair way less than third party shops.
- jbverschoor 4y ago
  I know exactly nobody who trusts anyone in car repair / maintenance. Whether it's official dealers, garages, etc. And from my experience and of those who actually investigate this, that's a very valid thing to do.

carrotcarrot 4y ago

I'm sticking with my used 2007 Camry. Easy to repair, engine runs fine, insurance is cheap... These new features are overrated.

anm89 4y ago

Is there any argument to be made that it's impossible to meet efficiency or emissions standards without this stuff? I've always been extremely against this stuff. I'd be interested to hear a good faith defense of the other side

briHass 4y ago
The article is light on examples, but it talks about an 'alignment' which requires special tools because of: >Newer cars have advanced driver-assistance systems, which can keep cars in their lane, detect blind spots, and avoid collisions—functions that require a car to have a firm grasp of where it is in space. That requires repairers to calibrate the sensors and cameras in a car underpinning those advanced systems. I can't speak for all of those systems, but things like 'electronic stability control' (required in 2011) saves an estimated 2000+ lives every year. Fuel injection is obviously a huge advantage over carburetors for reliability, fuel efficiency, and squeezing more power out of an engine. Even relatively simple systems like these require numerous sensors, computer-units, and aren't easy to diagnose/fix for a shade tree mechanic with basic tools.
- sidewndr46 4y ago
  I don't really think ABS or ESC actually saves lives. Instead of making driving safer, we adjust our driving habits such that the overall risk remains the same.
  - Eavolution 4y ago
    Yesterday some nutcase was doing about 100mph when me and other cars were doing about 50, he undertook a car in the right lane who was behind me but didnt realise there was a car in the right lane in front of me (I was in left, UK roads so left is driving lane). All is hear is the absolute screeching of brakes, if that car didn't have ABS theres no way he'd have kept it straight, and itd have probably gone into the side of me
- anm89 4y ago
  Yeah. I mean the line feels a bit arbitrary. I'm certainly not against fuel injection or even having an ECU. The stability control stuff I guess I'd want to talk to a mechanic and understand if it comes with a maintenance or quality burden. It seems like a lot of what's being sold today goes way past these points though. Just an impression

prova_modena 4y ago

A few thoughts, from someone who is in the business of supporting 20+ year old high end vehicles. - We are already seeing many 90s-early 2010s vehicles where we cannot repair or support certain parts. One big issue is the difficulty of board-level repair on discontinued electronic parts. Most auto shops can't/won't tackle that, their comfort level is just replacing whole electronic modules. Even if you can/will do these kinds of repairs, there is zero documentation and individual components may no be longer made or have obfuscated part numbers. There are some independent specialists doing good work in this field but it's still really hit-or-miss. If manufacturers were compelled to release detailed schematics and parts lists once parts are discontinued, it would help. - Also, I see many shops struggle to run older specialized diagnostic software/hardware. For example, certain subsystems that can only be programmed with proprietary interfaces that won't run on anything newer than windows 98. Or technical documentation software that needs a hardware key attached to a parallel port. I've worked around some of this kind of stuff using VMs or preserving older hardware, but it's really tough for the average shop and not something that's easy for an independent entrepreneur to turn into a product or service. Again, mandatory open-sourcing once things are discontinued or no longer serviced by dealers would be a major help here. - Regarding the two points above, I've heard counterarguments about the average new car being much more reliable than older cars. Mechanically, this may be true, but in my experience lots of car electronic systems fail due to age, not mileage. So my prediction is that even though new cars may travel 200k miles without major mechanical malfunctions, as they age a whole cohort of these cars will be plagued with issues due to stuff like capacitors leaking, solder joints cracking, water/dust intrusion, adhesives and coatings failing etc. This will be tough on lower income buyers who previously could buy something like a used 90s Camry which provides reliable cheap transportation even today. - The article uses the common euphemism of "labor shortage" to mask what is a crisis of labor conditions and pay. The automotive repair industry in the US is undergoing a severe brain drain due to a combination of exploitative labor practices and bad pay. I'm talking about total lifetime earning potential, not just "low starting wages" mentioned in the article. The trade association representative quoted at the end is doing a lot of wishful thinking about attracting young techie folks to the industry, because the industry currently is a very raw deal for any smart young person compared to other options. I imagine we will soon see articles like these invoke "passion" and "inspiring young car enthusiasts" as the industry tries emotional appeals to gain new hires. - Ultimately, NONE of these concerns about supporting older designs or attracting talent matter to the major manufacturers. Even high end cars now are only built to last the warranty period. The ideal new car customer leases the newest model each year and never buys. Under this model, dealer techs will only need to do routine maintenance and occasional parts swapping. No diagnostic skill required. The manufacturer considers the cars essentially disposable and "someone else's problem" once they can no longer make money off leases or financing. The incentives are completely against high quality, durable, repairable cars, and this won't change without some kind of stronger right-to-repair regulation.