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I started trying to learn Zig as my first non-GC language but switched over to C because I had trouble finding learning resources for Zig, while there are plent

by jpe90 4y ago

I started trying to learn Zig as my first non-GC language but switched over to C because I had trouble finding learning resources for Zig, while there are plenty of books and C code written to ISO standards to learn from. It felt like a language for people already proficient in C/C++ and systems programming.. but props to you for proving that wrong!

eatonphil 4y ago
Yeah that's a good point. I was a little surprised at the spartan quality of documentation. But I'm also comfortable grepping around the compiler/standard library source code to see patterns. And most importantly, I ask a ton of dumb questions on the Zig Programming Language's #zig-help channel. :) https://discord.gg/9Cp4uhDu https://discord.gg/9Cp4uhDu
- jpe90 4y ago
  the source code was very well laid put from what i remember, and tests were particularly helpful for understanding how to use library code. i just didn’t feel like i quite had the knowledge to architect low level code in general, you must have picked up on that naturally
  - eatonphil 4y ago
    Of all the reasons I might imagine someone feeling like C is easier to pick up than Zig, "hardware-software knowledge to know how to architect low level code in general" does not make a ton of sense to me. In what way do you feel this was easier in C?
    - kristoff_it 4y ago
      I think their point is that you need to learn that stuff and with C you can learn it "accidentally" through C learning materials. Zig doesn't have yet enough learning materials to "accidentally" teach you systems programming. The solution would be to have learning materials that teach you systems programming in a way that is not tied to a specific language, but I don't know of any example of that, and I guess the same applies to all the people that I had this discussion with in the past.
    - jpe90 4y ago
      when i have an idea for a program i want to build, i struggle to express it in terms of structs, pointers, and C/zig’s language features. but with C, i can often find similar programs and find good examples of how to do what i want. for example right now i’m working on an SDL/opengl app with an immediate mode gui, and there’s enough code in the wild for me to pour over to understand how and why they structure their programs but when i started with zig i would often get stuck, unable to really understand the c code i was interfacing with and struggling with the language basics a bit
      - kristoff_it 4y ago
        Yeah, that makes sense. We'll try to improve the situation, we just need to get a bit further ahead with the language first.
      - smaddox 4y ago
        On knowing how to structure low level code, I highly recommend reading Casey Muratori's blog post on Semantic Compression: https://caseymuratori.com/blog_0015 https://caseymuratori.com/blog_0015 And, more generally, watching some of his (free) handmade hero video series: https://handmadehero.org/ https://handmadehero.org/
        jpe90 4y ago
        Wow, that was incredibly helpful. I could read writeups of straightforward code all day. I also love how his ethos extends to the design of the website as well. Thanks so much for sharing.
int_19h 4y ago
Zig is not stable enough (in terms of language design) to be in the same spot as C wrt books and sample code. Even the linked blogpost has some examples of breaking syntax changes around for-loops, which is pretty basic stuff. If anything, I'd say it's extremely usable despite being very much a work-in-progress, largely due to their focus on tooling (and not just the language in and of itself) - it's also why I think it'll be an amazing ecosystem to work in once it matures.

by jpe90 4y ago

eatonphil 4y ago

Yeah that's a good point. I was a little surprised at the spartan quality of documentation. But I'm also comfortable grepping around the compiler/standard library source code to see patterns. And most importantly, I ask a ton of dumb questions on the Zig Programming Language's #zig-help channel. :) https://discord.gg/9Cp4uhDu https://discord.gg/9Cp4uhDu

jpe90 4y ago
the source code was very well laid put from what i remember, and tests were particularly helpful for understanding how to use library code. i just didn’t feel like i quite had the knowledge to architect low level code in general, you must have picked up on that naturally
- eatonphil 4y ago
  Of all the reasons I might imagine someone feeling like C is easier to pick up than Zig, "hardware-software knowledge to know how to architect low level code in general" does not make a ton of sense to me. In what way do you feel this was easier in C?
  - kristoff_it 4y ago
    I think their point is that you need to learn that stuff and with C you can learn it "accidentally" through C learning materials. Zig doesn't have yet enough learning materials to "accidentally" teach you systems programming. The solution would be to have learning materials that teach you systems programming in a way that is not tied to a specific language, but I don't know of any example of that, and I guess the same applies to all the people that I had this discussion with in the past.
  - jpe90 4y ago
    when i have an idea for a program i want to build, i struggle to express it in terms of structs, pointers, and C/zig’s language features. but with C, i can often find similar programs and find good examples of how to do what i want. for example right now i’m working on an SDL/opengl app with an immediate mode gui, and there’s enough code in the wild for me to pour over to understand how and why they structure their programs but when i started with zig i would often get stuck, unable to really understand the c code i was interfacing with and struggling with the language basics a bit
    - kristoff_it 4y ago
      Yeah, that makes sense. We'll try to improve the situation, we just need to get a bit further ahead with the language first.
    - smaddox 4y ago
      On knowing how to structure low level code, I highly recommend reading Casey Muratori's blog post on Semantic Compression: https://caseymuratori.com/blog_0015 https://caseymuratori.com/blog_0015 And, more generally, watching some of his (free) handmade hero video series: https://handmadehero.org/ https://handmadehero.org/
      - jpe90 4y ago
        Wow, that was incredibly helpful. I could read writeups of straightforward code all day. I also love how his ethos extends to the design of the website as well. Thanks so much for sharing.

int_19h 4y ago

Zig is not stable enough (in terms of language design) to be in the same spot as C wrt books and sample code. Even the linked blogpost has some examples of breaking syntax changes around for-loops, which is pretty basic stuff. If anything, I'd say it's extremely usable despite being very much a work-in-progress, largely due to their focus on tooling (and not just the language in and of itself) - it's also why I think it'll be an amazing ecosystem to work in once it matures.