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I'm sorry but matrix is a convoluted mess. Speaking from experience, when there's a deep focus on protocols and technical architecture before usability it becom

by asim 4y ago

I'm sorry but matrix is a convoluted mess. Speaking from experience, when there's a deep focus on protocols and technical architecture before usability it becomes incredibly hard for the consumer side to get started. It's still very much a DIY thing and the promise of Element hosted offerings kind of just defies the point of the federated design for what most came into it for, self hosting. Honestly, we just need a drop dead simple chat client/server that can be self hosted and may be eventually extended via wireguard/tailscale networks and MagicDNS.

ddevault 4y ago
Funny, my criticisms of Matrix are that it puts usability (or at least UI/UX) before the technical details.
- asim 4y ago
  The project was founded in 2014. It was heavily focused on building a federated protocol before there was anything related to end usability. Maybe they've just flubbed the implementation and done a poor job of it, I don't know. I can tell you from the external perspective it's not doing a great job at anything technical or end UX. WhatsApp nailed distribution, Signal does privacy well, Telegram is simple and scalable. What is Matrix? None of the above. I'm sorry, that might come across as harsh but I see a lot of wishful posts here that kind of throw users in that direction without real insight and knowledge into it. We don't want DIY that's endlessly complex and hard to maintain. The reason centralised apps work is because there's no setup, so really you're fighting frictionless experiences. Want to make self hosting a better experience, make it frictionless.
  - gausswho 4y ago
    I'm a fan of Matrix but am inclined to agree. In 2018 I looked at the Riot (Element) codebase with a hope to contribute to improving the client. In my estimation, the interfaces and data structures were bonkers convoluted and the maintainers gave dire warnings about how all of them were subject to radical change. I put my attention elsewhere. I wish they'd focused on building a messenger first, rather than trying to be a Slack/Teams/Discord. That said, it's taken a while but the Element client is dramatically better now. It still doesn't have the polish of other messengers, but I'm rooting for them to dial that in.
  - Steltek 4y ago
    Matrix does decentralization/federation well? The problem is that it's a philosophical/political goal and most people place other values (social cachet, ease of use, total cost) above that. Another problem is that a focus on federation limits your appeal to people who like to self-host things.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
rakoo 4y ago
> Honestly, we just need a drop dead simple chat client/server that can be self hosted XMPP, again and again. But that's not a solution, because the problem is absolutely not technical.
- asim 4y ago
  The problem is developers pushing a technical choice of protocol with little regard for user experience. How does the XMPP protocol improve on the user experience? It doesn't unless you have a client/server implementation that can be deployed and showcases that power. Think SMTP and email. You want XMPP to work, find a simple way to showcase they power. I've run the original jabberd server for an organizations internal chat server along with all the open source bells and whistles that go with it. Let me tell you I didn't once see the value of that except to save money and for privacy. But it was an organisation. If we want open federated communication the standout thing has to be the ease of use, the quality of experience and to actually highlight it's benefits. Right now I don't see that.
  - MattJ100 4y ago
    What you are describing is basically the gap that Snikket aims to fill - although for personal communication, it's not particularly aimed at organizations (I think the requirements for that are different, and there are many existing options already). I know at least one project aiming to fill the same gap for organizations though (again, using XMPP), but pre-release currently: https://prose.org/ https://prose.org/ I'm a firm believer in essentially what you said: The protocol doesn't matter, it's all about the products and what they can do and how easy they are to deploy and use.
  - rakoo 4y ago
    I'm sorry but if your point of data is the original jabberd server then you are not up to date with the experience you can have today. And the experience today is good, whether you use Prosody, Metronome, ejabberd and probably others, and when you chat with Conversations. You have all the bells and whistles of social networking with Movim. It' s not necessarily a better user experience but it provides a far better user independence, and that definitely counts.

by asim 4y ago

ddevault 4y ago

Funny, my criticisms of Matrix are that it puts usability (or at least UI/UX) before the technical details.

asim 4y ago
The project was founded in 2014. It was heavily focused on building a federated protocol before there was anything related to end usability. Maybe they've just flubbed the implementation and done a poor job of it, I don't know. I can tell you from the external perspective it's not doing a great job at anything technical or end UX. WhatsApp nailed distribution, Signal does privacy well, Telegram is simple and scalable. What is Matrix? None of the above. I'm sorry, that might come across as harsh but I see a lot of wishful posts here that kind of throw users in that direction without real insight and knowledge into it. We don't want DIY that's endlessly complex and hard to maintain. The reason centralised apps work is because there's no setup, so really you're fighting frictionless experiences. Want to make self hosting a better experience, make it frictionless.
- gausswho 4y ago
  I'm a fan of Matrix but am inclined to agree. In 2018 I looked at the Riot (Element) codebase with a hope to contribute to improving the client. In my estimation, the interfaces and data structures were bonkers convoluted and the maintainers gave dire warnings about how all of them were subject to radical change. I put my attention elsewhere. I wish they'd focused on building a messenger first, rather than trying to be a Slack/Teams/Discord. That said, it's taken a while but the Element client is dramatically better now. It still doesn't have the polish of other messengers, but I'm rooting for them to dial that in.
- Steltek 4y ago
  Matrix does decentralization/federation well? The problem is that it's a philosophical/political goal and most people place other values (social cachet, ease of use, total cost) above that. Another problem is that a focus on federation limits your appeal to people who like to self-host things.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

rakoo 4y ago

> Honestly, we just need a drop dead simple chat client/server that can be self hosted XMPP, again and again. But that's not a solution, because the problem is absolutely not technical.

asim 4y ago
The problem is developers pushing a technical choice of protocol with little regard for user experience. How does the XMPP protocol improve on the user experience? It doesn't unless you have a client/server implementation that can be deployed and showcases that power. Think SMTP and email. You want XMPP to work, find a simple way to showcase they power. I've run the original jabberd server for an organizations internal chat server along with all the open source bells and whistles that go with it. Let me tell you I didn't once see the value of that except to save money and for privacy. But it was an organisation. If we want open federated communication the standout thing has to be the ease of use, the quality of experience and to actually highlight it's benefits. Right now I don't see that.
- MattJ100 4y ago
  What you are describing is basically the gap that Snikket aims to fill - although for personal communication, it's not particularly aimed at organizations (I think the requirements for that are different, and there are many existing options already). I know at least one project aiming to fill the same gap for organizations though (again, using XMPP), but pre-release currently: https://prose.org/ https://prose.org/ I'm a firm believer in essentially what you said: The protocol doesn't matter, it's all about the products and what they can do and how easy they are to deploy and use.
- rakoo 4y ago
  I'm sorry but if your point of data is the original jabberd server then you are not up to date with the experience you can have today. And the experience today is good, whether you use Prosody, Metronome, ejabberd and probably others, and when you chat with Conversations. You have all the bells and whistles of social networking with Movim. It' s not necessarily a better user experience but it provides a far better user independence, and that definitely counts.