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Yeah I don't even know if that upper post was meant to be sarcastic. Telegram, despite the security theater, is amazing UX-wise. It's such a joy to use and I se

by Ayesh 4y ago

Yeah I don't even know if that upper post was meant to be sarcastic. Telegram, despite the security theater, is amazing UX-wise. It's such a joy to use and I see myself more and more engaging with Telegram contacts just because it's convenient in many subtle yet impactful ways.

rglullis 4y ago
You can improve the UX of Matrix clients. You can not make Telegram decentralized or take it out of control of one single entity.
- mritzmann 4y ago
  > You can improve the UX of Matrix clients No. Most people can't do that (because not everyone is a software developer).
  - Spacemolte 4y ago
    I don't think he means you, or the users that needs this, but instead that it is possible to do if they are open source.
    - rglullis 4y ago
      I'm always befuddled by how some people really take things so literally...
      - spockz 4y ago
        Indeed. That is why I started using “one could” instead of “you can”. This prevented a lot of misunderstanding.
        uptown 4y ago
        How can you possibly expect ONE person to do all of this? /s
        DocTomoe 4y ago
        I have been discouraged to use that form because native English speakers have corrected me that unless I am a British monarch, it would be incorrect language use.
        cyphar 4y ago
        Maybe I'm missing a joke, but this is not the case unless you're using "one" as a way of referring to yourself. Saying "one could" to mean "someone could" is perfectly standard English.
        mbg721 4y ago
        One does have to be a little careful with that... It's generally old-fashioned, and can end up sounding sarcastic or passive-aggressive if the statement is obviously meant to refer to a particular person. (Cf. the upper-Midwestern "a guy could" or "a lotta guys", as in "A lotta guys would have made sure that was tied to the roof of the car before they drove off.")
        sanitycheck 4y ago
        If one were to use it to refer to oneself, then one might be royalty. Otherwise, one may do as one likes!
      - OJFord 4y ago
        It must be exhausting never to take a break from befuddlement, you really ought to consider only feeling this way some of the time, or at least spend some time befuddled by other things.
        rglullis 4y ago
        If this were reddit, I'd upvote you. ;)
    - KMnO4 4y ago
      The point is that “it’s open source” is a really bad selling point when you’re talking about a messaging tool meant to be used by everyone. Good luck trying to convince the general population that “the UX is bad but theoretically anyone can improve it” is better than what you get out of the box with other messengers.
      - rglullis 4y ago
        You don't need to convince "the general population" to switch. You don't even need to convince anyone to "switch". Just do the change yourself. Help those people close to you to install Element alongside whatever they are using now. Even if just because they are using to talk with you, it's better than nothing. You don't get to migrate things that are on huge network effects in one go. But we can help the growth of one network organically until it reaches critical mass.
        ajsnigrutin 4y ago
        But other people don't install element alongside whatever (except maybe your parents), but they continue using what works for them... Are you really so "special", you can convince all of your friends with "I know all your friends are using app X, but if you want to chat with me, you need app Y, which noone else is using right now, but maybe, some day..."?
        rglullis 4y ago
        Not all, but the ones that mattered and bothered, yes. I am not asking them to delete the other app, I am not asking them to join a religion. I am just asking them (and helping if necessary) to install an app and set up an account on my server.
- Ayesh 4y ago
  Honest question, is there are Matrix client that has a decent amount of UX work gone into it? I recently started to use Fluffy, that looks pretty good with a nice clean design, but does not have the same level of polish as Telegram, at least not yet. It's open source and one should try to contribute and not complain, that I figure, but not everyone can contribute in the first place.
  - Arathorn 4y ago
    https://element.io/blog/an-unrecognisable-improvement-elements-new-design-is-here/ https://element.io/blog/an-unrecognisable-improvement-elemen...
    - gausswho 4y ago
      Please let me hide the 'Home' and Spaces sidebar in web Element. I have no interest for it and it's an egregious waste of space.
  - weissbier 4y ago
    If you don't mind that it's web based, try Cinny: https://cinny.in https://cinny.in
- nikitaga 4y ago
  Well if you can, then why aren't they as good as Telegram, and why should I be holding my breath for their UI / UX to suddenly improve? Matrix has been around for almost as long as Telegram. I don't use either so I don't really care. I just don't expect a consumer service with subpar UI to win market share solely on technical merits.
  - rglullis 4y ago
    - smallerfish 4y ago
      Not OP, but that's not a fair statement. Checking the box of ideals doesn't mean that open source software is off the hook in having to compete on features. Regular users do not give a rat's ass about source code being open; it's an extremely abstract concept if you're not in the field. All they care about is free as in beer. Matrix can either target the niche demographic of the highly technical, or it needs to level up on usability to reach a wide audience. The number of people who have tried LibreOffice, Gimp, etc is probably orders of magnitude higher than the number of actual daily users. If these software applications were businesses, their exec teams would have been fired many times over for the atrocious churn. Free as in beer is an excellent foot in the door, but it's wasted time and again by huffy developers who don't know how to create good UX and who won't open the door to good product people who want to help out.
      - rglullis 4y ago
        > Checking the box of ideals doesn't mean that open source software is off the hook in having to compete on features. No one said that. > Regular users do not give a rat's ass about source code being open Open source or not, they should care about reliability, avoiding lock-in, abusive practices from monopolistic players, privacy... > If these software applications were businesses, their exec teams would have been fired many times over for the atrocious churn. If these applications were business, you'd also have to look at Cost of Customer Acquisition, at how much is being spent on marketing, you'd also have to see how much your developer team is being compensated, how much they are getting in shares, etc. If the investment is zero, the ROI from FOSS will be by definition infinitely superior to closed solutions. What I am trying to say is: TANSTAAFL. OP's seems to not care about his freedoms, so he is willing (like many others) to trade it away for the convenience brought by closed solutions. So it is no surprise that a FOSS project (which has no way to monetize the user to finance its development) will lag behind. This will only change when people start covering some of this difference and start supporting FOSS projects directly.
- gtirloni 4y ago
  > You can improve the UX of Matrix clients Apparently, that has not been a priority in many years. Matrix/Element is so far behind usability/features that it's really only used by people that favor decentralization/openess at the expense of actual users.
- gorgoiler 4y ago
  The paradox is that if you have the skillset to improve the Matrix UX, you’re probably off doing something else for 10x the impact.

by Ayesh 4y ago

rglullis 4y ago

You can improve the UX of Matrix clients. You can not make Telegram decentralized or take it out of control of one single entity.

mritzmann 4y ago
> You can improve the UX of Matrix clients No. Most people can't do that (because not everyone is a software developer).
- Spacemolte 4y ago
  I don't think he means you, or the users that needs this, but instead that it is possible to do if they are open source.
  - rglullis 4y ago
    I'm always befuddled by how some people really take things so literally...
    - spockz 4y ago
      Indeed. That is why I started using “one could” instead of “you can”. This prevented a lot of misunderstanding.
      - uptown 4y ago
        How can you possibly expect ONE person to do all of this? /s
      - DocTomoe 4y ago
        I have been discouraged to use that form because native English speakers have corrected me that unless I am a British monarch, it would be incorrect language use.
        cyphar 4y ago
        Maybe I'm missing a joke, but this is not the case unless you're using "one" as a way of referring to yourself. Saying "one could" to mean "someone could" is perfectly standard English.
        mbg721 4y ago
        One does have to be a little careful with that... It's generally old-fashioned, and can end up sounding sarcastic or passive-aggressive if the statement is obviously meant to refer to a particular person. (Cf. the upper-Midwestern "a guy could" or "a lotta guys", as in "A lotta guys would have made sure that was tied to the roof of the car before they drove off.")
        sanitycheck 4y ago
        If one were to use it to refer to oneself, then one might be royalty. Otherwise, one may do as one likes!
    - OJFord 4y ago
      It must be exhausting never to take a break from befuddlement, you really ought to consider only feeling this way some of the time, or at least spend some time befuddled by other things.
      - rglullis 4y ago
        If this were reddit, I'd upvote you. ;)
  - KMnO4 4y ago
    The point is that “it’s open source” is a really bad selling point when you’re talking about a messaging tool meant to be used by everyone. Good luck trying to convince the general population that “the UX is bad but theoretically anyone can improve it” is better than what you get out of the box with other messengers.
    - rglullis 4y ago
      You don't need to convince "the general population" to switch. You don't even need to convince anyone to "switch". Just do the change yourself. Help those people close to you to install Element alongside whatever they are using now. Even if just because they are using to talk with you, it's better than nothing. You don't get to migrate things that are on huge network effects in one go. But we can help the growth of one network organically until it reaches critical mass.
      - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
        But other people don't install element alongside whatever (except maybe your parents), but they continue using what works for them... Are you really so "special", you can convince all of your friends with "I know all your friends are using app X, but if you want to chat with me, you need app Y, which noone else is using right now, but maybe, some day..."?
        rglullis 4y ago
        Not all, but the ones that mattered and bothered, yes. I am not asking them to delete the other app, I am not asking them to join a religion. I am just asking them (and helping if necessary) to install an app and set up an account on my server.
Ayesh 4y ago
Honest question, is there are Matrix client that has a decent amount of UX work gone into it? I recently started to use Fluffy, that looks pretty good with a nice clean design, but does not have the same level of polish as Telegram, at least not yet. It's open source and one should try to contribute and not complain, that I figure, but not everyone can contribute in the first place.
- Arathorn 4y ago
  https://element.io/blog/an-unrecognisable-improvement-elements-new-design-is-here/ https://element.io/blog/an-unrecognisable-improvement-elemen...
  - gausswho 4y ago
    Please let me hide the 'Home' and Spaces sidebar in web Element. I have no interest for it and it's an egregious waste of space.
- weissbier 4y ago
  If you don't mind that it's web based, try Cinny: https://cinny.in https://cinny.in
nikitaga 4y ago
Well if you can, then why aren't they as good as Telegram, and why should I be holding my breath for their UI / UX to suddenly improve? Matrix has been around for almost as long as Telegram. I don't use either so I don't really care. I just don't expect a consumer service with subpar UI to win market share solely on technical merits.
- rglullis 4y ago
  - smallerfish 4y ago
    Not OP, but that's not a fair statement. Checking the box of ideals doesn't mean that open source software is off the hook in having to compete on features. Regular users do not give a rat's ass about source code being open; it's an extremely abstract concept if you're not in the field. All they care about is free as in beer. Matrix can either target the niche demographic of the highly technical, or it needs to level up on usability to reach a wide audience. The number of people who have tried LibreOffice, Gimp, etc is probably orders of magnitude higher than the number of actual daily users. If these software applications were businesses, their exec teams would have been fired many times over for the atrocious churn. Free as in beer is an excellent foot in the door, but it's wasted time and again by huffy developers who don't know how to create good UX and who won't open the door to good product people who want to help out.
    - rglullis 4y ago
      > Checking the box of ideals doesn't mean that open source software is off the hook in having to compete on features. No one said that. > Regular users do not give a rat's ass about source code being open Open source or not, they should care about reliability, avoiding lock-in, abusive practices from monopolistic players, privacy... > If these software applications were businesses, their exec teams would have been fired many times over for the atrocious churn. If these applications were business, you'd also have to look at Cost of Customer Acquisition, at how much is being spent on marketing, you'd also have to see how much your developer team is being compensated, how much they are getting in shares, etc. If the investment is zero, the ROI from FOSS will be by definition infinitely superior to closed solutions. What I am trying to say is: TANSTAAFL. OP's seems to not care about his freedoms, so he is willing (like many others) to trade it away for the convenience brought by closed solutions. So it is no surprise that a FOSS project (which has no way to monetize the user to finance its development) will lag behind. This will only change when people start covering some of this difference and start supporting FOSS projects directly.
gtirloni 4y ago
> You can improve the UX of Matrix clients Apparently, that has not been a priority in many years. Matrix/Element is so far behind usability/features that it's really only used by people that favor decentralization/openess at the expense of actual users.
gorgoiler 4y ago
The paradox is that if you have the skillset to improve the Matrix UX, you’re probably off doing something else for 10x the impact.