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> This. When my Mac has GPU problems, I don't complain to NVIDIA or AMD; I complain to Apple. Since Apple is the final integrator, it has the ultimate responsib

> This. When my Mac has GPU problems, I don't complain to NVIDIA or AMD; I complain to Apple. Since Apple is the final integrator, it has the ultimate responsibility for ensuring that all parts work well together. This is a significantly different situation than Framework's situation. Apple controls the hardware and the operating system. Framework only controls the hardware, not the software. Let's look at a totally hypothetical example: Let's say the Framework laptop ships with Ubuntu 22.04 running the 5.15 kernel, and the Framework folks test it carefully, it works great, all is well. Ubuntu then decides to ship an over-the-air software update automatically to the 5.17 kernel, which has a driver bug causing the laptop to freeze every minute. Ubuntu does this without consulting Framework, Framework has no chance to test it. Who's fault is the above? Is it Framework for not building their own operating system too, like apple did, and putting the software experience of their hardware in someone else's hands? Is it the linux kernel for breaking something? Is it ubuntu for shipping an update to a laptop the distro developers may not even own?

opportune 4y ago
Framework can pay a company like Canonical for testing and integration, run a fork of a common distro that they maintain, or make their own.
- resonious 4y ago
  Yes. I was also going to mention that the entire point of Linux being open is that anyone else can modify it to fit their needs. If Framework wants to actually ensure support, they can create their own patches or hacks. Since it's popular, they'll probably get upstreamed and then everyone's happy.
sanderjd 4y ago
The answer to whose fault it is is: Whoever the customer thinks is at fault. Having a strong brand cuts both ways. If Framework develops a strong brand of "buy our stuff, it works great" (as I think they have!) and people buy the machines largely based on that brand, then that's obviously really great for Framework in lots of ways. But this is the other edge of that sword: they're going to be the one lots of people blame when there are issues. This is no different than the situation for decades with Windows and PC vendors. When I built a PC from commodity hardware and installed Windows on it, if something went wrong, I'd blame Microsoft, or the manufacturers of the components I used, or myself. But when I would buy an HP laptop, if something went wrong, that was HP's fault.
dylan604 4y ago
>Apple controls the hardware and the operating system. They do now, but prior to ASi, they were using Intel CPUs and AMD/Nvidia GPUs until Nvidia pissed them off so badly around 2010-2011 that they went exclusive with AMD. The trashcan Mac Pro had a GPU issue that affected renders from Resolve. Resolve said AMD. AMD said Apple. Apple said not us, and crossed their arms pointing at the other two. The fun thing was if you used BootCamp to run windows on the exact same hardware with the Windows version of Resolve on the exact same footage using the same grading session, the timeline would render without any errors. Reboot back as Mac, and render errors. So, clearly, not a hardware issue. Definitely seemed software, but I gave up on the issue well before any errors were resolved but switching back to the latest cheese grater chassis.
nl 4y ago
This is why Dell/System76 certify specific builds (or build their own distribution). The company the person pays money to is the company responsible. Yes there are limits to this (if you install something outside the supported software then you are on your own) but if you are doing what they say and it doesn't work then they are responsible.
wmf 4y ago
Framework controls their marketing. If they say Linux works but Linux does not work, that's not good. They could say that Linux doesn't work or at least not say that Linux works.
Fire-Dragon-DoL 4y ago
System76 doesn't have this problem, still focused on linux though
- cultofmetatron 4y ago
  they curate the hardware and develop popos for their hardware. but they aren't building a whole new hardware pipeline like framework is. Its still a small company.
lhl 4y ago
Actually, this was more than a hypothetical situation. I got my 12th Gen Framework and and started with Linux 5.18 which was fine. Recently 5.19.12 was released which had a potentially panel killing display flicker regression [1] apparently due to a bad automated backport [2]. You can see from the thread that this was only noticed because someone pointed out the Framework community forum thread [3] on the kernel list. AFAICT, this regression could have potentially affected all Intel laptops (here's a report on an issue w/ an 11th Gen Lenovo laptop that seems to have been affected for example [4]). To me, what's interesting is that none of the ISVs that are Linux-exclusive vendors actually caught this in QC/smoke testing. The alternative seems to be "certifying" to a particular distro, but I don't think that'll help most people who run Linux and have the distros they like. Sometimes Linux pre-loading can be a negative as well - Dell is notorious for not actually bothering to upstream their kernel changes for the Developer Edition Linux laptops to mainline for example (they'd done it before w/ their touchpads, and currently have the same w/ their webcam drivers). One of the big things in Framework's favor is there's an active official forum, w/ a very active Linux section [5]. I think Lenovo is the only other laptop vendor I've seen that has something comparable. [6] [1] https://lore.kernel.org/all/55905860-adf9-312c-69cc-491ac8ce1a8b@cern.ch/T/#u https://lore.kernel.org/all/55905860-adf9-312c-69cc-491ac8ce... [2] https://lore.kernel.org/all/YzsfrkJcwqKOO+E%2F@intel.com/ https://lore.kernel.org/all/YzsfrkJcwqKOO+E%2F@intel.com/ [3] https://community.frame.work/t/psa-dont-upgrade-to-linux-kernel-5-19-12/23171 https://community.frame.work/t/psa-dont-upgrade-to-linux-ker... [4] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2130699 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2130699 [5] https://community.frame.work/c/framework-laptop/linux/91 https://community.frame.work/c/framework-laptop/linux/91 [6] https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Operating-Systems/ct-p/lx_en https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Operating-Systems/ct-p/lx...

opportune 4y ago

Framework can pay a company like Canonical for testing and integration, run a fork of a common distro that they maintain, or make their own.

resonious 4y ago
Yes. I was also going to mention that the entire point of Linux being open is that anyone else can modify it to fit their needs. If Framework wants to actually ensure support, they can create their own patches or hacks. Since it's popular, they'll probably get upstreamed and then everyone's happy.

sanderjd 4y ago

The answer to whose fault it is is: Whoever the customer thinks is at fault. Having a strong brand cuts both ways. If Framework develops a strong brand of "buy our stuff, it works great" (as I think they have!) and people buy the machines largely based on that brand, then that's obviously really great for Framework in lots of ways. But this is the other edge of that sword: they're going to be the one lots of people blame when there are issues. This is no different than the situation for decades with Windows and PC vendors. When I built a PC from commodity hardware and installed Windows on it, if something went wrong, I'd blame Microsoft, or the manufacturers of the components I used, or myself. But when I would buy an HP laptop, if something went wrong, that was HP's fault.

dylan604 4y ago

>Apple controls the hardware and the operating system. They do now, but prior to ASi, they were using Intel CPUs and AMD/Nvidia GPUs until Nvidia pissed them off so badly around 2010-2011 that they went exclusive with AMD. The trashcan Mac Pro had a GPU issue that affected renders from Resolve. Resolve said AMD. AMD said Apple. Apple said not us, and crossed their arms pointing at the other two. The fun thing was if you used BootCamp to run windows on the exact same hardware with the Windows version of Resolve on the exact same footage using the same grading session, the timeline would render without any errors. Reboot back as Mac, and render errors. So, clearly, not a hardware issue. Definitely seemed software, but I gave up on the issue well before any errors were resolved but switching back to the latest cheese grater chassis.

nl 4y ago

This is why Dell/System76 certify specific builds (or build their own distribution). The company the person pays money to is the company responsible. Yes there are limits to this (if you install something outside the supported software then you are on your own) but if you are doing what they say and it doesn't work then they are responsible.

wmf 4y ago

Framework controls their marketing. If they say Linux works but Linux does not work, that's not good. They could say that Linux doesn't work or at least not say that Linux works.

Fire-Dragon-DoL 4y ago

System76 doesn't have this problem, still focused on linux though

cultofmetatron 4y ago
they curate the hardware and develop popos for their hardware. but they aren't building a whole new hardware pipeline like framework is. Its still a small company.

lhl 4y ago

Actually, this was more than a hypothetical situation. I got my 12th Gen Framework and and started with Linux 5.18 which was fine. Recently 5.19.12 was released which had a potentially panel killing display flicker regression [1] apparently due to a bad automated backport [2]. You can see from the thread that this was only noticed because someone pointed out the Framework community forum thread [3] on the kernel list. AFAICT, this regression could have potentially affected all Intel laptops (here's a report on an issue w/ an 11th Gen Lenovo laptop that seems to have been affected for example [4]). To me, what's interesting is that none of the ISVs that are Linux-exclusive vendors actually caught this in QC/smoke testing. The alternative seems to be "certifying" to a particular distro, but I don't think that'll help most people who run Linux and have the distros they like. Sometimes Linux pre-loading can be a negative as well - Dell is notorious for not actually bothering to upstream their kernel changes for the Developer Edition Linux laptops to mainline for example (they'd done it before w/ their touchpads, and currently have the same w/ their webcam drivers). One of the big things in Framework's favor is there's an active official forum, w/ a very active Linux section [5]. I think Lenovo is the only other laptop vendor I've seen that has something comparable. [6] [1] https://lore.kernel.org/all/55905860-adf9-312c-69cc-491ac8ce1a8b@cern.ch/T/#u https://lore.kernel.org/all/55905860-adf9-312c-69cc-491ac8ce... [2] https://lore.kernel.org/all/YzsfrkJcwqKOO+E%2F@intel.com/ https://lore.kernel.org/all/YzsfrkJcwqKOO+E%2F@intel.com/ [3] https://community.frame.work/t/psa-dont-upgrade-to-linux-kernel-5-19-12/23171 https://community.frame.work/t/psa-dont-upgrade-to-linux-ker... [4] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2130699 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2130699 [5] https://community.frame.work/c/framework-laptop/linux/91 https://community.frame.work/c/framework-laptop/linux/91 [6] https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Operating-Systems/ct-p/lx_en https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Linux-Operating-Systems/ct-p/lx...