4 ms·

I agree. There is risk in both the virus and the vaccine. And the vaccine is a statistically safer bet, although I’m sure specific biological/genetic factors c

I agree. There is risk in both the virus and the vaccine. And the vaccine is a statistically safer bet, although I’m sure specific biological/genetic factors can alter this calculation.

taolegal 4y ago
> And the vaccine is a statistically safer bet Given that the risk of infection is well studied now for average healthy people, where measuring severe outcomes is a matter of how infinitesimally close to 0% it is, I trust my immune system that's the product of millions of years of evolution vs. overly self-confident scientists working alongside pharmaceutical companies maximizing profit and minimizing any knowledge of side-effects and risks associated with their products.
- belltaco 4y ago
  >I trust my immune system that's the product of millions of years of evolution And yet it's not very good against smallpox which had a 30% mortality rate and higher in infants. Not to mention HIV or Ebola.
  - taolegal 4y ago
    I love how you selectively omit my statement prefaced with "Given that the risk of infection is well studied now for average healthy people," Smallpox is not covid, it's ridiculous to even compare them.
    - AstralStorm 4y ago
      You're right, the correct comparison for COVID is actually measles. And it's more evasive than that - the vaccine and acquired immunity does not hold nearly as well. Measles was controlled by mass vaccination that provides for years of neutralizing antibody response combined with merciless quarantine on outbreaks. COVID vaccine of today does not achieve that. It's still much better than nothing, but insufficient to control it.
      - taolegal 4y ago
        > the correct comparison for COVID is actually measles According to what, infectiousness and transmission? Measles is still a ridiculous comparison. The only comparison is influenza, SARS or something along those lines.
        AstralStorm 4y ago
        Literally Rt for either of those is much lower, and sequelae plus death rates don't match in severity. Measles, similar to COVID, temporarily messes up immune system in a number of cases. (Though by a different mechanism.) Besides vaccine effectiveness - which is why COVID is not under control. And it took 20 years to reduce deaths from that virus worldwide. COVID explodes in similar ways as measles when it gets into a school or care facility. We are slightly lucky the Omicron is not as deadly as Delta... but new variants might be getting there soon. Even the worst influenza epidemic did not meet the Rt, and it was less deadly than Delta. That 100 years ago, before vaccines, after a huge war with starved people. Flu now has also a half decent vaccine if the predictions work, better at neutralizing it and limiting the spread. I want to hear a reasoned argument why it should be compared to influenza or SARS, besides "it is an airborne spread". Even MERS is not there.
        taolegal 4y ago
        > We are slightly lucky the Omicron is not as deadly as Delta... but new variants might be getting there soon. this is exactly the type of unbounded fearmongering and disinformation that supposed science-advocates love to spread, as though covid will slip into a wave of death at any moment after experts forced everyone to get injected under the promise that it'd all end > Flu now has also a half decent vaccine if the predictions work, better at neutralizing it and limiting the spread half decent? that's a really generous framing for hit-or-miss low efficacy.
        AstralStorm 4y ago
        Fearmongering? I believe you are just ignorant. Let me dispell some of that with primary sources: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34206453/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34206453/ https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/5-things-to-know-omicron https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/5-things-to-know-omicron BA.5 and XBB do lead to more severe disease than BA.1, though still not as many deaths as Delta. There are further even worse developments already getting percentages over BA.5. (BA.4.6 and BQ.7) Again, not much worse, but still an increment. The worst symptom that's new is extreme fatigue. It is only a few mutations to return to origin and start wrecking lungs again in addition to being spreadable. Some researchers brought back a chunk of Delta spike into BA.1 and got 80% kill rate in mice. And it is just a few genes. Since XBB shows that variants can, though not easily, crosslink, someone might become this unlucky patient one generating a deadly cross between Delta and Omicron. A variant of Delta that gained some of Omicron features by evolution was also quite deadly, but fortunately it did not catch on and become a variant of concern. We're lucky so far. Flu vaccine is half decent in that when it works, it gives neutralizing immunity. Keyword is when it works. That is, if the variants in the vaccine match well enough to the current wild ones. It is high efficacy if the guess is right. When the guess is off, having been vaccinated for a similar variant reduces severity and complications a lot, still. Current COVID vaccine does not in general give neutralizing immunity even when variants match. It means it cannot stop the virus being passed around to immunocompromised, sick or unvaccinated. It reduces the time it's being spread but that is not sufficient. It also reduces chance of people ending up in hospital or dead and severity of symptoms. We do not know how much it reduces chances of Long COVID yet. Because it's not doing much to the spread, people get ill at a similar rate, just milder. There are developments for mucosal vaccine that can fix this problem.
- xcrunner529 4y ago
  - NackerHughes 4y ago
    Covidists seem to love it when other people die, as long as their deaths reinforce the narrative they tell themselves. It's interesting to watch them suddenly lose every shred of the 'empathy' they love to preach to others about, almost as if it was never anything but a paper-thin facade of virtue signalling. Why do you feel victory when your words cause pain?
    - cinntaile 4y ago
      What's a covidist?
      - xcrunner529 4y ago
        Corny motherfucker trying to be Alex Jones lmao
  - taolegal 4y ago
    Nice anecdata, very scientific, but also yea someone's who at-risk should decide whether they want it or not.
    - xcrunner529 4y ago
      I mean it’s not anecdata. They considered Covid a hoax and didn’t take any precautions or obviously vaccines and they all caught it. There’s thousands of real life cases exactly like that because people forget we aren’t God or immortal.
- random314 4y ago

I agree. There is risk in both the virus and the vaccine. And the vaccine is a statistically safer bet, although I’m sure specific biological/genetic factors can alter this calculation.

taolegal 4y ago

> And the vaccine is a statistically safer bet Given that the risk of infection is well studied now for average healthy people, where measuring severe outcomes is a matter of how infinitesimally close to 0% it is, I trust my immune system that's the product of millions of years of evolution vs. overly self-confident scientists working alongside pharmaceutical companies maximizing profit and minimizing any knowledge of side-effects and risks associated with their products.

belltaco 4y ago
>I trust my immune system that's the product of millions of years of evolution And yet it's not very good against smallpox which had a 30% mortality rate and higher in infants. Not to mention HIV or Ebola.
- taolegal 4y ago
  I love how you selectively omit my statement prefaced with "Given that the risk of infection is well studied now for average healthy people," Smallpox is not covid, it's ridiculous to even compare them.
  - AstralStorm 4y ago
    You're right, the correct comparison for COVID is actually measles. And it's more evasive than that - the vaccine and acquired immunity does not hold nearly as well. Measles was controlled by mass vaccination that provides for years of neutralizing antibody response combined with merciless quarantine on outbreaks. COVID vaccine of today does not achieve that. It's still much better than nothing, but insufficient to control it.
    - taolegal 4y ago
      > the correct comparison for COVID is actually measles According to what, infectiousness and transmission? Measles is still a ridiculous comparison. The only comparison is influenza, SARS or something along those lines.
      - AstralStorm 4y ago
        Literally Rt for either of those is much lower, and sequelae plus death rates don't match in severity. Measles, similar to COVID, temporarily messes up immune system in a number of cases. (Though by a different mechanism.) Besides vaccine effectiveness - which is why COVID is not under control. And it took 20 years to reduce deaths from that virus worldwide. COVID explodes in similar ways as measles when it gets into a school or care facility. We are slightly lucky the Omicron is not as deadly as Delta... but new variants might be getting there soon. Even the worst influenza epidemic did not meet the Rt, and it was less deadly than Delta. That 100 years ago, before vaccines, after a huge war with starved people. Flu now has also a half decent vaccine if the predictions work, better at neutralizing it and limiting the spread. I want to hear a reasoned argument why it should be compared to influenza or SARS, besides "it is an airborne spread". Even MERS is not there.
        taolegal 4y ago
        > We are slightly lucky the Omicron is not as deadly as Delta... but new variants might be getting there soon. this is exactly the type of unbounded fearmongering and disinformation that supposed science-advocates love to spread, as though covid will slip into a wave of death at any moment after experts forced everyone to get injected under the promise that it'd all end > Flu now has also a half decent vaccine if the predictions work, better at neutralizing it and limiting the spread half decent? that's a really generous framing for hit-or-miss low efficacy.
        AstralStorm 4y ago
        Fearmongering? I believe you are just ignorant. Let me dispell some of that with primary sources: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34206453/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34206453/ https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/5-things-to-know-omicron https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/5-things-to-know-omicron BA.5 and XBB do lead to more severe disease than BA.1, though still not as many deaths as Delta. There are further even worse developments already getting percentages over BA.5. (BA.4.6 and BQ.7) Again, not much worse, but still an increment. The worst symptom that's new is extreme fatigue. It is only a few mutations to return to origin and start wrecking lungs again in addition to being spreadable. Some researchers brought back a chunk of Delta spike into BA.1 and got 80% kill rate in mice. And it is just a few genes. Since XBB shows that variants can, though not easily, crosslink, someone might become this unlucky patient one generating a deadly cross between Delta and Omicron. A variant of Delta that gained some of Omicron features by evolution was also quite deadly, but fortunately it did not catch on and become a variant of concern. We're lucky so far. Flu vaccine is half decent in that when it works, it gives neutralizing immunity. Keyword is when it works. That is, if the variants in the vaccine match well enough to the current wild ones. It is high efficacy if the guess is right. When the guess is off, having been vaccinated for a similar variant reduces severity and complications a lot, still. Current COVID vaccine does not in general give neutralizing immunity even when variants match. It means it cannot stop the virus being passed around to immunocompromised, sick or unvaccinated. It reduces the time it's being spread but that is not sufficient. It also reduces chance of people ending up in hospital or dead and severity of symptoms. We do not know how much it reduces chances of Long COVID yet. Because it's not doing much to the spread, people get ill at a similar rate, just milder. There are developments for mucosal vaccine that can fix this problem.
xcrunner529 4y ago
- NackerHughes 4y ago
  Covidists seem to love it when other people die, as long as their deaths reinforce the narrative they tell themselves. It's interesting to watch them suddenly lose every shred of the 'empathy' they love to preach to others about, almost as if it was never anything but a paper-thin facade of virtue signalling. Why do you feel victory when your words cause pain?
  - cinntaile 4y ago
    What's a covidist?
    - xcrunner529 4y ago
      Corny motherfucker trying to be Alex Jones lmao
- taolegal 4y ago
  Nice anecdata, very scientific, but also yea someone's who at-risk should decide whether they want it or not.
  - xcrunner529 4y ago
    I mean it’s not anecdata. They considered Covid a hoax and didn’t take any precautions or obviously vaccines and they all caught it. There’s thousands of real life cases exactly like that because people forget we aren’t God or immortal.
random314 4y ago