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It still blows my mind that a game genre I thought was the most niche of niches, that I played routinely in the early 2000s, has become one of the major influen

It still blows my mind that a game genre I thought was the most niche of niches, that I played routinely in the early 2000s, has become one of the major influences in modern gaming today. Shoutout to ADOM, a game I spent countless hours playing.

OrangeMonkey 4y ago
ADOM - The game where understanding Conways Game of Life helps you farm herbs in a dungeon.
pjbeam 4y ago
I always really wanted to get a trident of the red rooster and even with a guide was never able to do it. Maybe I'll give it another shot! Thanks for bringing back some lovely (frustrating) memories.
- baq 4y ago
  Wasn’t that thing an Easter egg?
dolni 4y ago
It's not really, though. So many games are called "roguelike" from so many different genres that the word has lost all meaning. Near as I can tell, the only thing actually meant by it is "when you lose you start over". By that definition, checkers is a roguelike.
- Shared404 4y ago
  I think it's more common to see roguelite's than roguelike's in modern games, though the latter term is much more common.
- furyofantares 4y ago
  You've basically debunked your own theory here since nobody calls checkers or anything like checkers a roguelike. Roguelikes almost always involve building up a character or deck or cards or whatever by acquiring more stuff that changes the gameplay, and it's the loss of this unique thing that you've built that is relevant to "when you lose you start over." Additionally, roguelikes are almost always heavily randomzied, when you start over you get brand new decisions to make. "When you lose you start over" certainly is a roguelike characteristic, but what losing means and what starting over means is strongly similar among roguelikes and not similar to losing or starting over in checkers.
  - mcv 4y ago
    Deck of cards? That does not sound like a roguelike at all to me. Maybe I'm a purist, but when I play a roguelike, I expect to be a @ fighting o-s in between walls of #s.
    - peterashford 4y ago
      See Slay The Spire.
  - dolni 4y ago
    What I contend is that "when you lose you start over" is the ONLY defining characteristic of what people lately call a "roguelike". And it's not even applied consistently! The term is self-descriptive. It means "a game like Rogue". Lately, the term has been latched on to by people who don't know what it means. They latched on to it probably because they thought it sounded cool, or saw a game on Steam with the "roguelike" tag that was fun. Let's examine just how many genres the term encompasses: Isle of Arrows (https://store.steampowered.com/app/1946970/Isle_of_Arrows/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1946970/Isle_of_Arrows/) is a tower defense game. It's tagged as a roguelike. PlateUp! (https://store.steampowered.com/app/1599600/PlateUp/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1599600/PlateUp/) is a game about managing a restaurant. It's tagged as a roguelike. Nimbatus (https://store.steampowered.com/app/383840/Nimbatus__The_Space_Drone_Constructor/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/383840/Nimbatus__The_Spac...) is a game about building space drones. You can compete against other players or play in sandbox mode. It, SOMEHOW, is tagged as a roguelike. Brotato (https://store.steampowered.com/app/1942280/Brotato/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1942280/Brotato/) is an arena bullet-hell game where the only randomness is what items and upgrades you're offered. It is tagged as a roguelike. Vampire Survivors (https://store.steampowered.com/app/1794680/Vampire_Survivors/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1794680/Vampire_Survivors...) is another arena bullet-hell game and there is almost no impactful randomness. You have a very high degree of control over what your build looks like. It's tagged as a roguelike. Slay the Spire (https://store.steampowered.com/app/646570/Slay_the_Spire/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/646570/Slay_the_Spire/) is a deckbuilding game. It's tagged as a roguelike. Dome Keeper (https://store.steampowered.com/app/1637320/Dome_Keeper/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1637320/Dome_Keeper/) is a base building game. It's tagged as a roguelike. The Van Game (https://store.steampowered.com/app/2081860/The_Van_Game/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/2081860/The_Van_Game/) is a game about traveling to national parks. It's self-described as being inspired by the Oregon Trail. Was the Oregon Trail a roguelike? The Van Game is sure tagged as one. Another Farm Roguelike (https://store.steampowered.com/app/2116850/Another_Farm_Roguelike/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/2116850/Another_Farm_Rogu...) is a farming sim. It even has "roguelike" in the name. Risk of Rain 2 (https://store.steampowered.com/app/632360/Risk_of_Rain_2/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/632360/Risk_of_Rain_2/) is a third person shooter without procedural generation. The randomness is in the equipment you find. It is tagged as an action roguelike. Darkest Dungeon (https://store.steampowered.com/app/262060/Darkest_Dungeon/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/262060/Darkest_Dungeon/) is a game with a long progression arc. There is randomness but no main character. In fact, your characters can die and you don't game over. Your entire PARTY can die and THAT isn't game over (https://steamcommunity.com/app/262060/discussions/0/612823460274807915/ https://steamcommunity.com/app/262060/discussions/0/61282346...). It, too, is tagged as a roguelike. Caves of Qud (https://store.steampowered.com/app/333640/Caves_of_Qud/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/333640/Caves_of_Qud/) is a roguelike. Like, an actual one. It's tagged as roguelike AND it's also tagged as "traditional roguelike". Which is yet another indicator that the term simply doesn't mean anything of significance anymore. Why does nobody describe action RPGs played in hardcore mode (e.g. Diablo and Path of Exile) as roguelikes? They fit both of your criteria. How come roguelike is not associated with games like Fortnite or PUBG? Again, both games provide a good deal of randomness and character building. We have games from nearly a dozen genres that are described as being "like Rogue". Some games have a lot of randomness, some don't. Some games described as roguelike _don't even feature permadeath_. And some very popular games with impactful randomness and character building ARE NOT described as roguelikes. The term means literally nothing.
Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
The only real influence is the concept of permadeath. People often claim that games like FTL are roguelikes, but other than permadeath, they have nothing in common with Rogue.
- xnorswap 4y ago
  That's unfair to FTL and the advancement of rogue-likes and perhaps more importantly, rogue-lites. It's not just "permadeath", there's also the seeding and randomness of each game . (No-one would argue that Super Mario is a rogue-like). Additionally, and while this is stretched to some degree in games like Hades, there's the discrete-time based nature of the games compared to a game like Isaac for instance. Then with rogue-lites there's also a layering of meta-progression on top of the game loop progression. Saying that roguelikes are "just" permadeath is misrepresenting the genre entirely. And the nature of words is that you might conclude that rogue isn't necessarily the quintessential rogue-like game, but that's okay.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
    I'm not saying that roguelikes is "just" permadeath. I'm saying that this is the main game feature that is shared by roguelikes and FTL. And randomly generated game world is so common that it can't even be considered as some unique roguelike feature.
- steeleduncan 4y ago
  Other commonalities in the case of FTL: - Random generation - Resource management - Exploration - Single ruleset for players and enemies - Combat focused - Multiple viable strategies
  - danielbarla 4y ago
    I'd also add: - Meta-progression where (most of) the unlocked ships are strictly worse than the starter ship To elaborate on this, most games tend to have unlocks or game modes that are overpowered, giving you a "victory lap" on subsequent playthroughs. Roguelikes tend to give you interesting unlocks that can still be powerful, but tend to be a lot harder to play than the original. (This is not a hard and fast rule, more of a rough idea.)
anthk 4y ago
Ditto with Slash'em, I still play it because you don't even need a powerful CPU and GPU.

OrangeMonkey 4y ago

ADOM - The game where understanding Conways Game of Life helps you farm herbs in a dungeon.

pjbeam 4y ago

I always really wanted to get a trident of the red rooster and even with a guide was never able to do it. Maybe I'll give it another shot! Thanks for bringing back some lovely (frustrating) memories.

baq 4y ago
Wasn’t that thing an Easter egg?

dolni 4y ago

It's not really, though. So many games are called "roguelike" from so many different genres that the word has lost all meaning. Near as I can tell, the only thing actually meant by it is "when you lose you start over". By that definition, checkers is a roguelike.

Shared404 4y ago
I think it's more common to see roguelite's than roguelike's in modern games, though the latter term is much more common.
furyofantares 4y ago
You've basically debunked your own theory here since nobody calls checkers or anything like checkers a roguelike. Roguelikes almost always involve building up a character or deck or cards or whatever by acquiring more stuff that changes the gameplay, and it's the loss of this unique thing that you've built that is relevant to "when you lose you start over." Additionally, roguelikes are almost always heavily randomzied, when you start over you get brand new decisions to make. "When you lose you start over" certainly is a roguelike characteristic, but what losing means and what starting over means is strongly similar among roguelikes and not similar to losing or starting over in checkers.
- mcv 4y ago
  Deck of cards? That does not sound like a roguelike at all to me. Maybe I'm a purist, but when I play a roguelike, I expect to be a @ fighting o-s in between walls of #s.
  - peterashford 4y ago
    See Slay The Spire.
- dolni 4y ago
  What I contend is that "when you lose you start over" is the ONLY defining characteristic of what people lately call a "roguelike". And it's not even applied consistently! The term is self-descriptive. It means "a game like Rogue". Lately, the term has been latched on to by people who don't know what it means. They latched on to it probably because they thought it sounded cool, or saw a game on Steam with the "roguelike" tag that was fun. Let's examine just how many genres the term encompasses: Isle of Arrows (https://store.steampowered.com/app/1946970/Isle_of_Arrows/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1946970/Isle_of_Arrows/) is a tower defense game. It's tagged as a roguelike. PlateUp! (https://store.steampowered.com/app/1599600/PlateUp/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1599600/PlateUp/) is a game about managing a restaurant. It's tagged as a roguelike. Nimbatus (https://store.steampowered.com/app/383840/Nimbatus__The_Space_Drone_Constructor/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/383840/Nimbatus__The_Spac...) is a game about building space drones. You can compete against other players or play in sandbox mode. It, SOMEHOW, is tagged as a roguelike. Brotato (https://store.steampowered.com/app/1942280/Brotato/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1942280/Brotato/) is an arena bullet-hell game where the only randomness is what items and upgrades you're offered. It is tagged as a roguelike. Vampire Survivors (https://store.steampowered.com/app/1794680/Vampire_Survivors/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1794680/Vampire_Survivors...) is another arena bullet-hell game and there is almost no impactful randomness. You have a very high degree of control over what your build looks like. It's tagged as a roguelike. Slay the Spire (https://store.steampowered.com/app/646570/Slay_the_Spire/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/646570/Slay_the_Spire/) is a deckbuilding game. It's tagged as a roguelike. Dome Keeper (https://store.steampowered.com/app/1637320/Dome_Keeper/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1637320/Dome_Keeper/) is a base building game. It's tagged as a roguelike. The Van Game (https://store.steampowered.com/app/2081860/The_Van_Game/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/2081860/The_Van_Game/) is a game about traveling to national parks. It's self-described as being inspired by the Oregon Trail. Was the Oregon Trail a roguelike? The Van Game is sure tagged as one. Another Farm Roguelike (https://store.steampowered.com/app/2116850/Another_Farm_Roguelike/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/2116850/Another_Farm_Rogu...) is a farming sim. It even has "roguelike" in the name. Risk of Rain 2 (https://store.steampowered.com/app/632360/Risk_of_Rain_2/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/632360/Risk_of_Rain_2/) is a third person shooter without procedural generation. The randomness is in the equipment you find. It is tagged as an action roguelike. Darkest Dungeon (https://store.steampowered.com/app/262060/Darkest_Dungeon/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/262060/Darkest_Dungeon/) is a game with a long progression arc. There is randomness but no main character. In fact, your characters can die and you don't game over. Your entire PARTY can die and THAT isn't game over (https://steamcommunity.com/app/262060/discussions/0/612823460274807915/ https://steamcommunity.com/app/262060/discussions/0/61282346...). It, too, is tagged as a roguelike. Caves of Qud (https://store.steampowered.com/app/333640/Caves_of_Qud/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/333640/Caves_of_Qud/) is a roguelike. Like, an actual one. It's tagged as roguelike AND it's also tagged as "traditional roguelike". Which is yet another indicator that the term simply doesn't mean anything of significance anymore. Why does nobody describe action RPGs played in hardcore mode (e.g. Diablo and Path of Exile) as roguelikes? They fit both of your criteria. How come roguelike is not associated with games like Fortnite or PUBG? Again, both games provide a good deal of randomness and character building. We have games from nearly a dozen genres that are described as being "like Rogue". Some games have a lot of randomness, some don't. Some games described as roguelike _don't even feature permadeath_. And some very popular games with impactful randomness and character building ARE NOT described as roguelikes. The term means literally nothing.

Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago

The only real influence is the concept of permadeath. People often claim that games like FTL are roguelikes, but other than permadeath, they have nothing in common with Rogue.

xnorswap 4y ago
That's unfair to FTL and the advancement of rogue-likes and perhaps more importantly, rogue-lites. It's not just "permadeath", there's also the seeding and randomness of each game . (No-one would argue that Super Mario is a rogue-like). Additionally, and while this is stretched to some degree in games like Hades, there's the discrete-time based nature of the games compared to a game like Isaac for instance. Then with rogue-lites there's also a layering of meta-progression on top of the game loop progression. Saying that roguelikes are "just" permadeath is misrepresenting the genre entirely. And the nature of words is that you might conclude that rogue isn't necessarily the quintessential rogue-like game, but that's okay.
- Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
  I'm not saying that roguelikes is "just" permadeath. I'm saying that this is the main game feature that is shared by roguelikes and FTL. And randomly generated game world is so common that it can't even be considered as some unique roguelike feature.
steeleduncan 4y ago
Other commonalities in the case of FTL: - Random generation - Resource management - Exploration - Single ruleset for players and enemies - Combat focused - Multiple viable strategies
- danielbarla 4y ago
  I'd also add: - Meta-progression where (most of) the unlocked ships are strictly worse than the starter ship To elaborate on this, most games tend to have unlocks or game modes that are overpowered, giving you a "victory lap" on subsequent playthroughs. Roguelikes tend to give you interesting unlocks that can still be powerful, but tend to be a lot harder to play than the original. (This is not a hard and fast rule, more of a rough idea.)

anthk 4y ago

Ditto with Slash'em, I still play it because you don't even need a powerful CPU and GPU.