4 ms·

To see what's wrong with UIs, we need look no further than X. Consider the myriad of UIs which run on X, many of which aren't compatible with one another: star

To see what's wrong with UIs, we need look no further than X. Consider the myriad of UIs which run on X, many of which aren't compatible with one another: starting with Athena, through Motif widgets, through competing Gnome and KDE, GNUStep, and so on. There must be dozens of major toolkits historically. What caused this mess? Openness and the hacker nature did. A UI needs a bully: someone who says that you will do text fields this way, and if you don't like it, tough. Consistency is absolutely crucial in a successful UI. In Windows, the bully is Microsoft. In OS X the bully is Apple. Open systems by their very nature don't have a single dictator. A UI also needs a bully to force simpler designs. X is replete with applications that have every single possible configuration option. It's part of the tradition. The problem is that this makes the applications extraordinarily unfriendly to the 99% of the population who want to get work done, in favor of the 1% hackers who like to tweak. It's a rare X application which doesn't suffer from this malady: indeed X does itself. There's no one to tell these application designers that their propeller-hats are screwed on too tight. I don't know if there is a way to fix this. Simplicity and consistency are the two most important features of a UI, and the open nature of Linux, X, etc. simply run against them. When a bully arrives to the Linux world (such as Google in Android) you start seeing quality again. Without it, you wind up with Maemo.

philjr 15y ago
More of a benevolent dictator really
saucerful 15y ago
> Consider the myriad of UIs which run on X, many of which aren't compatible with one another If you are referring to window toolkits, they are all compatible in the sense that you can run different ones side-by-side. If you are referring to window managers, you only need one. If you are referring to a consistent look, the two major ones (GTK and Qt) each have themes which render their widgets in the other toolkit (GTK-Qt and QGtkStyle, respectively). I can vouch for GTK-Qt. It works.
- jebblue 15y ago
  Totally agree, UI's do not need to be overseen by an overlord of design. I can right now start up a KDE app or a Gnome app and they happily co-exist. Try to pull of something like that on oh Windows, Mac or Android. At least I don't think I've ever seen anything like that on those OS's.
  - wmf 15y ago
    OS X had Cocoa, Carbon/QuickDraw, Classic, and X11. It's great for compatibility but not so much for consistency.
  - jodrellblank 15y ago
    Something like running a Win32 app, a .Net Winforms app, a Java app and wxPython app concurrently?
    - jebblue 15y ago
      Good points. Even Gtk apps now that you jog my memory.
  - xtracto 15y ago
    The problem I see with open source applications (on the GUI level, for *BSD and Linux families) is that of interaction between apps. Something as obvious as copying and pasting between applications is still broken in these systems mainly due to the lack of a standard, or for the small standards that exist, few applications follow them. I think that one of several issues, but it is the one that I find more obvious.
- wmf 15y ago
  The different toolkits are not visually compatible (I realize many people don't care, especially when the alternative is to do without), and in some cases they're not conceptually compatible (e.g. how do I paste here?).
  - saucerful 15y ago
mgunes 15y ago
What caused this mess? Some historical deliberation on that question, in a broader context, by Matthew Paul Thomas: http://web.archive.org/web/20051030040127/http://mpt.phrasewise.com/2002/04/13 http://web.archive.org/web/20051030040127/http://mpt.phrasew... Havoc Pennington: http://ometer.com/free-software-ui.html http://ometer.com/free-software-ui.html
- cobychapple 15y ago
  Interesting read—thanks for posting those links!
acabal 15y ago
Exactly right. As an aside, I think the key is to make sure the bully is actually right about what they're bullying. For example both Gnome (via Gnome Shell) and Ubuntu (via Unity) have already realized that they need to be bullies to see through their grand new UI visions. That much can be inferred by how both projects are interacting with the community and the complaints/praise it generates. But in my opinion though, the bullies behind both Gnome Shell and Unity are objectively wrong in many of their design decisions, and as a result both products are deeply and perhaps even irreversibly flawed. Unfortunately, a bully by definition must continue bullying, damn the torpedoes; and that's how we end up with products that cause such a deep rift in the community, when in fact the opposite--majority praise at how things have improved--should be happening. Bullies are essential to good UI. It's a tragedy, though, when the bullies are wrong.
holri 15y ago
What is wrong with the UI of Maemo?

philjr 15y ago

More of a benevolent dictator really

saucerful 15y ago

> Consider the myriad of UIs which run on X, many of which aren't compatible with one another If you are referring to window toolkits, they are all compatible in the sense that you can run different ones side-by-side. If you are referring to window managers, you only need one. If you are referring to a consistent look, the two major ones (GTK and Qt) each have themes which render their widgets in the other toolkit (GTK-Qt and QGtkStyle, respectively). I can vouch for GTK-Qt. It works.

jebblue 15y ago
Totally agree, UI's do not need to be overseen by an overlord of design. I can right now start up a KDE app or a Gnome app and they happily co-exist. Try to pull of something like that on oh Windows, Mac or Android. At least I don't think I've ever seen anything like that on those OS's.
- wmf 15y ago
  OS X had Cocoa, Carbon/QuickDraw, Classic, and X11. It's great for compatibility but not so much for consistency.
- jodrellblank 15y ago
  Something like running a Win32 app, a .Net Winforms app, a Java app and wxPython app concurrently?
  - jebblue 15y ago
    Good points. Even Gtk apps now that you jog my memory.
- xtracto 15y ago
  The problem I see with open source applications (on the GUI level, for *BSD and Linux families) is that of interaction between apps. Something as obvious as copying and pasting between applications is still broken in these systems mainly due to the lack of a standard, or for the small standards that exist, few applications follow them. I think that one of several issues, but it is the one that I find more obvious.
wmf 15y ago
The different toolkits are not visually compatible (I realize many people don't care, especially when the alternative is to do without), and in some cases they're not conceptually compatible (e.g. how do I paste here?).
- saucerful 15y ago

mgunes 15y ago

What caused this mess? Some historical deliberation on that question, in a broader context, by Matthew Paul Thomas: http://web.archive.org/web/20051030040127/http://mpt.phrasewise.com/2002/04/13 http://web.archive.org/web/20051030040127/http://mpt.phrasew... Havoc Pennington: http://ometer.com/free-software-ui.html http://ometer.com/free-software-ui.html

cobychapple 15y ago
Interesting read—thanks for posting those links!

acabal 15y ago

Exactly right. As an aside, I think the key is to make sure the bully is actually right about what they're bullying. For example both Gnome (via Gnome Shell) and Ubuntu (via Unity) have already realized that they need to be bullies to see through their grand new UI visions. That much can be inferred by how both projects are interacting with the community and the complaints/praise it generates. But in my opinion though, the bullies behind both Gnome Shell and Unity are objectively wrong in many of their design decisions, and as a result both products are deeply and perhaps even irreversibly flawed. Unfortunately, a bully by definition must continue bullying, damn the torpedoes; and that's how we end up with products that cause such a deep rift in the community, when in fact the opposite--majority praise at how things have improved--should be happening. Bullies are essential to good UI. It's a tragedy, though, when the bullies are wrong.

holri 15y ago

What is wrong with the UI of Maemo?