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They are late to the game as always. It seems like Chromium and Firefox are the first to implement, and Safari is consistently last. There are a few standards t

They are late to the game as always. It seems like Chromium and Firefox are the first to implement, and Safari is consistently last. There are a few standards that Safari has been first to, but it is the exception.

dmitriid 4y ago
This is, of course, untrue. Chrome ships hundreds of new web APIs a year. Most of them are Chrome-only non-standards. Firefox and Safari are more closely aligned: https://web-confluence.appspot.com/#!/confluence https://web-confluence.appspot.com/#!/confluence
- encryptluks2 4y ago
  I was specifically referring to CSS features as proposed by standards bodies.
  - jensimmons 4y ago
    Which CSS standards would you most like to see Safari shipping sooner?
    - alwillis 4y ago
      Crickets
  - extra88 4y ago
    Every browser has instances of being the holdout on features, Safari does not stand out, especially amongst CSS features. Safari hasn't shipped touch-action, overflow-anchor, media queries range syntax. Chrome hasn't shipped the new viewport units, font-variant-alternates, or CSS subgrid. Chrome not supporting CSS subgrid is far more consequential than any CSS feature Safari is the holdout on. Edit: Safari also has no support for CSS counter styles or CSS paged media while Chrome and Firefox have at least partial support. Again, those don't seem particularly consequential features for moving web design forward. https://caniuse.com/?compare=chrome+106,safari+16.0,firefox+106&compareCats=all https://caniuse.com/?compare=chrome+106,safari+16.0,firefox+...
    - alwillis 4y ago
      CSS counter styles or CSS paged media while Chrome and Firefox have When I read this, I turned on css counter styles on my iPhone: Settings > Safari > Advanced > Experimental features. There are a lot of in-development web features that can be enabled.
      - extra88 4y ago
        If a feature is not enabled in a browser by default, it doesn't count as "Yes, supported." Sites can't be designed expecting users will all go into their browser's experimental features list and turn things on. Some CSS features can be used even without widespread browser support because the content's meaning isn't changed in browsers that don't support the feature; border-radius is a classic example. For something like CSS counter styles, if an ordered list is equally well-understood with the default numbers or the custom styles, they can be fine but it's easy to think of examples where meaning would be lost without the counter styles.
        alwillis 4y ago
        If a feature is not enabled in a browser by default, it doesn't count as "Yes, supported." Sites can't be designed expecting users will all go into their browser's experimental features list and turn things on.on I didn't claim this was a supported feature, just that it wasn't accurate to suggest that WebKit has no support for some of these features that seem to be missing. They are being worked on and will be turned on by default pretty soon.
        extra88 4y ago
        By caniuse’s measure, being behind a flag is a ‘No’ for the reason I gave. Being available as an experimental feature does not mean its release is imminent, there are ones that have been there for years. Thankfully, it’s not like they’re in a queue, some are released after only a few months.
nozzlegear 4y ago
Why does it matter if they're first to implement a standard?
- encryptluks2 4y ago
  Because Safari is gatekeeping not innovating and implementing W3C standards.
  - olliej 4y ago
    What are they gatekeeping here?
    - encryptluks2 4y ago
      Web standards and features. I assume you haven't heard of them intentionally limiting PWAs?
      - olliej 4y ago
        Huh, I didn’t realize that there was a “web standards and features” standard, or a PWA specification - could you provide the urls? Or alternatively actually answer the question like an adult rather than parroting the standard Apple hates the web nonsense.
  - alwillis 4y ago
    False. In case nobody noticed, the WebKit team kicked ass by shipping a ton of new features this year: * dialog element * lazy loading * inert * :has() pseudo-class * new viewport units * Cascade Layers * focus visible * accent color * appearance * font palettes for color fonts * BroadcastChannel * Web Locks API * File System Access API * enhancements to WebAssembly * support for Display-P3 in canvas * additions to COOP and COEP * container queries * subgrid * web push * shared workers * CSS Offset Path * AVIF * Passkeys
pwinnski 4y ago
Sometimes duplicate or wasteful features[0], but hey, Chrome's got those features! Meanwhile, on interoperability[1], Firefox and Safari are currently at 84, while Chrome is at... 75. Once they update with this new release, Safari should climb to 89[2]. Being first to things isn't always the great thing you're suggesting, if those things aren't actually being asked for--or wanted. 0. https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2021-March/031765.html https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2021-March/031... 1. https://wpt.fyi/interop-2022?stable https://wpt.fyi/interop-2022?stable 2. https://wpt.fyi/interop-2022 https://wpt.fyi/interop-2022
- dmitriid 4y ago
  That first link is a thing of beauty. Also, it's terrifying because it's just one of hundreds of standards that WebKit (and Firefox) might not have the time and resources to fight.

dmitriid 4y ago

This is, of course, untrue. Chrome ships hundreds of new web APIs a year. Most of them are Chrome-only non-standards. Firefox and Safari are more closely aligned: https://web-confluence.appspot.com/#!/confluence https://web-confluence.appspot.com/#!/confluence

encryptluks2 4y ago
I was specifically referring to CSS features as proposed by standards bodies.
- jensimmons 4y ago
  Which CSS standards would you most like to see Safari shipping sooner?
  - alwillis 4y ago
    Crickets
- extra88 4y ago
  Every browser has instances of being the holdout on features, Safari does not stand out, especially amongst CSS features. Safari hasn't shipped touch-action, overflow-anchor, media queries range syntax. Chrome hasn't shipped the new viewport units, font-variant-alternates, or CSS subgrid. Chrome not supporting CSS subgrid is far more consequential than any CSS feature Safari is the holdout on. Edit: Safari also has no support for CSS counter styles or CSS paged media while Chrome and Firefox have at least partial support. Again, those don't seem particularly consequential features for moving web design forward. https://caniuse.com/?compare=chrome+106,safari+16.0,firefox+106&compareCats=all https://caniuse.com/?compare=chrome+106,safari+16.0,firefox+...
  - alwillis 4y ago
    CSS counter styles or CSS paged media while Chrome and Firefox have When I read this, I turned on css counter styles on my iPhone: Settings > Safari > Advanced > Experimental features. There are a lot of in-development web features that can be enabled.
    - extra88 4y ago
      If a feature is not enabled in a browser by default, it doesn't count as "Yes, supported." Sites can't be designed expecting users will all go into their browser's experimental features list and turn things on. Some CSS features can be used even without widespread browser support because the content's meaning isn't changed in browsers that don't support the feature; border-radius is a classic example. For something like CSS counter styles, if an ordered list is equally well-understood with the default numbers or the custom styles, they can be fine but it's easy to think of examples where meaning would be lost without the counter styles.
      - alwillis 4y ago
        If a feature is not enabled in a browser by default, it doesn't count as "Yes, supported." Sites can't be designed expecting users will all go into their browser's experimental features list and turn things on.on I didn't claim this was a supported feature, just that it wasn't accurate to suggest that WebKit has no support for some of these features that seem to be missing. They are being worked on and will be turned on by default pretty soon.
        extra88 4y ago
        By caniuse’s measure, being behind a flag is a ‘No’ for the reason I gave. Being available as an experimental feature does not mean its release is imminent, there are ones that have been there for years. Thankfully, it’s not like they’re in a queue, some are released after only a few months.

nozzlegear 4y ago

Why does it matter if they're first to implement a standard?

encryptluks2 4y ago
Because Safari is gatekeeping not innovating and implementing W3C standards.
- olliej 4y ago
  What are they gatekeeping here?
  - encryptluks2 4y ago
    Web standards and features. I assume you haven't heard of them intentionally limiting PWAs?
    - olliej 4y ago
      Huh, I didn’t realize that there was a “web standards and features” standard, or a PWA specification - could you provide the urls? Or alternatively actually answer the question like an adult rather than parroting the standard Apple hates the web nonsense.
- alwillis 4y ago
  False. In case nobody noticed, the WebKit team kicked ass by shipping a ton of new features this year: * dialog element * lazy loading * inert * :has() pseudo-class * new viewport units * Cascade Layers * focus visible * accent color * appearance * font palettes for color fonts * BroadcastChannel * Web Locks API * File System Access API * enhancements to WebAssembly * support for Display-P3 in canvas * additions to COOP and COEP * container queries * subgrid * web push * shared workers * CSS Offset Path * AVIF * Passkeys

pwinnski 4y ago

Sometimes duplicate or wasteful features[0], but hey, Chrome's got those features! Meanwhile, on interoperability[1], Firefox and Safari are currently at 84, while Chrome is at... 75. Once they update with this new release, Safari should climb to 89[2]. Being first to things isn't always the great thing you're suggesting, if those things aren't actually being asked for--or wanted. 0. https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2021-March/031765.html https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2021-March/031... 1. https://wpt.fyi/interop-2022?stable https://wpt.fyi/interop-2022?stable 2. https://wpt.fyi/interop-2022 https://wpt.fyi/interop-2022

dmitriid 4y ago
That first link is a thing of beauty. Also, it's terrifying because it's just one of hundreds of standards that WebKit (and Firefox) might not have the time and resources to fight.