4 ms·

Will be interesting to see if this PM's financial savviness will affect the war in Ukraine, i.e. by reversing or slowing the stupidest financial decision ever m

by _xnmw 4y ago

Will be interesting to see if this PM's financial savviness will affect the war in Ukraine, i.e. by reversing or slowing the stupidest financial decision ever made by Europe, that is the decision to sanction Russia before winter. A softer take on Russia sanctions and warmer Moscow-London ties may mean peace, sooner, with less damage to Ukraine and to Europe.

eppp 4y ago
It seems like the most trivial answer would be for Russia to simply leave Ukraine.
- dotancohen 4y ago
  It's always easy to say "The world would be a better place if those who disagree with me would just...". I'll raise your "Russia should just..." with "NATO should just not expand into Ukraine". Sure I'll lose some internet points but I'm illustrating that your simplification does not reflect that the other side has what they perceive as a valid point of view as well.
  - Veen 4y ago
    > NATO should just not expand into Ukraine It did not. Nor did it plan to do so.
    - dotancohen 4y ago
      From the NATO's 2021 Brussels summit [0]: > We reiterate the decision made at the 2008 Bucharest Summit that Ukraine will become > a member of the Alliance with the Membership Action Plan (MAP) as an integral part > of the process; we reaffirm all elements of that decision, as well as subsequent > decisions, including that each partner will be judged on its own merits. We stand firm > in our support for Ukraine’s right to decide its own future and foreign policy course > free from outside interference. > The Annual National Programmes under the NATO-Ukraine Commission (NUC) remain the > mechanism by which Ukraine takes forward the reforms pertaining to its aspiration for > NATO membership. Ukraine should make full use of all instruments available under the > NUC to reach its objective of implementing NATO principles and standards. The success > of wide-ranging, sustainable, and irreversible reforms, including combating > corruption, promoting an inclusive political process, and decentralisation reform, > based on democratic values, respect for human rights, minorities, and the rule of law, > will be crucial in laying the groundwork for a prosperous and peaceful Ukraine. > Further reforms in the security sector, including the reform of the Security Services > of Ukraine, are particularly important. We welcome significant reforms already made by > Ukraine and strongly encourage further progress in line with Ukraine’s international > obligations and commitments. > We will continue to provide practical support to reform in the security and defence > sector, including through the Comprehensive Assistance Package. We will also continue > to support Ukraine’s efforts to strengthen its resilience against hybrid threats, > including through intensifying activities under the NATO-Ukraine Platform on > Countering Hybrid Warfare. > We welcome the cooperation between NATO and Ukraine with regard to security in the > Black Sea region. The Enhanced Opportunities Partner status granted last year provides > further impetus to our already ambitious cooperation and will promote greater > interoperability, with the option of more joint exercises, training, and enhanced > situational awareness. > Military cooperation and capacity building initiatives between Allies and Ukraine, > including the Lithuanian-Polish-Ukrainian Brigade, further reinforce this effort. We > highly value Ukraine’s significant contributions to Allied operations, the NATO > Response Force, and NATO exercises. [0] https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_185000.htm?selectedLocale=en https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_185000.htm?selectedL...
- _xnmw 4y ago
  > What all the parties to the conflict in Ukraine seem to have forgotten is that the future of mankind will not be determined by where international borders are drawn — these have never been static in history and doubtless will continue to change from time to time. The future of mankind will be determined by whether nations learn to settle their differences peacefully. [1] https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/10/17/on-ukraine-the-us-is-on-the-hook-to-find-a-way-out/ https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/10/17/on-ukraine-the-...
  - _kbh_ 4y ago
    Ceasefires only benefit Russia, easiest way to end this conflict is to arm Ukraine with all the weapons they need to push Russia out of its territory.
MattPalmer1086 4y ago
There is no appetite in Britain to appease Putin and help him in his monstrous war. That's about the only thing all parties do agree on here. I can't tell if you think you're making a serious suggestion, or just trolling.
- _xnmw 4y ago
  I'm about as serious as I could be. I live in Ukraine, work for humanitarian NGOs here, and I regularly travel in and out of the front lines of the war. It's not about appeasement, it's about plain common sense, i.e. not shooting oneself in the foot. Sanctions have hurt Europe more than Russia, their ruble and export revenues are actually up since before the war, while Europe is struggling with inflation and basic gas supply issues.
  - MattPalmer1086 4y ago
    Ah, thanks for your reply and thanks for the work you are doing. As I said though, I don't think reversing sanctions is a political option in the UK, even if it made sense financially. It would certainly be perceived as appeasing Putin. Right now I think there is a general desire to hurt Putin's regime (without direct confrontation between NATO and Russia). Even if it hurts us too. Maybe when Winter bites, attitudes will shift. Edit: Putin's regime also carried out assassinations in our country using radioactive materials and nerve poison (which killed some innocent bystanders too). We really, really don't like him.

by _xnmw 4y ago

eppp 4y ago

It seems like the most trivial answer would be for Russia to simply leave Ukraine.

dotancohen 4y ago
It's always easy to say "The world would be a better place if those who disagree with me would just...". I'll raise your "Russia should just..." with "NATO should just not expand into Ukraine". Sure I'll lose some internet points but I'm illustrating that your simplification does not reflect that the other side has what they perceive as a valid point of view as well.
- Veen 4y ago
  > NATO should just not expand into Ukraine It did not. Nor did it plan to do so.
  - dotancohen 4y ago
    From the NATO's 2021 Brussels summit [0]: > We reiterate the decision made at the 2008 Bucharest Summit that Ukraine will become > a member of the Alliance with the Membership Action Plan (MAP) as an integral part > of the process; we reaffirm all elements of that decision, as well as subsequent > decisions, including that each partner will be judged on its own merits. We stand firm > in our support for Ukraine’s right to decide its own future and foreign policy course > free from outside interference. > The Annual National Programmes under the NATO-Ukraine Commission (NUC) remain the > mechanism by which Ukraine takes forward the reforms pertaining to its aspiration for > NATO membership. Ukraine should make full use of all instruments available under the > NUC to reach its objective of implementing NATO principles and standards. The success > of wide-ranging, sustainable, and irreversible reforms, including combating > corruption, promoting an inclusive political process, and decentralisation reform, > based on democratic values, respect for human rights, minorities, and the rule of law, > will be crucial in laying the groundwork for a prosperous and peaceful Ukraine. > Further reforms in the security sector, including the reform of the Security Services > of Ukraine, are particularly important. We welcome significant reforms already made by > Ukraine and strongly encourage further progress in line with Ukraine’s international > obligations and commitments. > We will continue to provide practical support to reform in the security and defence > sector, including through the Comprehensive Assistance Package. We will also continue > to support Ukraine’s efforts to strengthen its resilience against hybrid threats, > including through intensifying activities under the NATO-Ukraine Platform on > Countering Hybrid Warfare. > We welcome the cooperation between NATO and Ukraine with regard to security in the > Black Sea region. The Enhanced Opportunities Partner status granted last year provides > further impetus to our already ambitious cooperation and will promote greater > interoperability, with the option of more joint exercises, training, and enhanced > situational awareness. > Military cooperation and capacity building initiatives between Allies and Ukraine, > including the Lithuanian-Polish-Ukrainian Brigade, further reinforce this effort. We > highly value Ukraine’s significant contributions to Allied operations, the NATO > Response Force, and NATO exercises. [0] https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_185000.htm?selectedLocale=en https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_185000.htm?selectedL...
_xnmw 4y ago
> What all the parties to the conflict in Ukraine seem to have forgotten is that the future of mankind will not be determined by where international borders are drawn — these have never been static in history and doubtless will continue to change from time to time. The future of mankind will be determined by whether nations learn to settle their differences peacefully. [1] https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/10/17/on-ukraine-the-us-is-on-the-hook-to-find-a-way-out/ https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/10/17/on-ukraine-the-...
- _kbh_ 4y ago
  Ceasefires only benefit Russia, easiest way to end this conflict is to arm Ukraine with all the weapons they need to push Russia out of its territory.

MattPalmer1086 4y ago

There is no appetite in Britain to appease Putin and help him in his monstrous war. That's about the only thing all parties do agree on here. I can't tell if you think you're making a serious suggestion, or just trolling.

_xnmw 4y ago
I'm about as serious as I could be. I live in Ukraine, work for humanitarian NGOs here, and I regularly travel in and out of the front lines of the war. It's not about appeasement, it's about plain common sense, i.e. not shooting oneself in the foot. Sanctions have hurt Europe more than Russia, their ruble and export revenues are actually up since before the war, while Europe is struggling with inflation and basic gas supply issues.
- MattPalmer1086 4y ago
  Ah, thanks for your reply and thanks for the work you are doing. As I said though, I don't think reversing sanctions is a political option in the UK, even if it made sense financially. It would certainly be perceived as appeasing Putin. Right now I think there is a general desire to hurt Putin's regime (without direct confrontation between NATO and Russia). Even if it hurts us too. Maybe when Winter bites, attitudes will shift. Edit: Putin's regime also carried out assassinations in our country using radioactive materials and nerve poison (which killed some innocent bystanders too). We really, really don't like him.