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I think that’s a counterpoint we need to hear more to the current ’reduction’ narrative. Small nudge to push innovation in a positive direction is an important

by alfor 4y ago

I think that’s a counterpoint we need to hear more to the current ’reduction’ narrative. Small nudge to push innovation in a positive direction is an important tool, but we are getting overboard with control and regulation. Here in Québec the law forbid plastic bags in stores, but plasticulture, packaging is a far worse problem, the law is virtue signaling instead of pushing for meaningful changes. There is strong case to be made for progress, more energy, more food, more housing for the whole planet. In a 100 years we will be so far away in technology that our current problem will seem like a joke. But I think it important to be careful with things that could never recover: ocean and land diversity, contamination of groundwater/soil.

dalbasal 4y ago
Many "green laws" like plastic bags are signaling>effect. This is true. Sometimes this is even recognised. Awareness-raising and such. That said, externalities don't generally get solved without laws. I totally agreed that human progress, technological and otherwise cannot be ignored. On plastics... It's undeniably true that a large portion of the garbage you might find in the woods, streets, fields, lakes or oceans is plastic. Meanwhile, a lot of landfills and other waste disposal systems suck. They pollute by design, aren't used properly or designed correctly. It's also true that a lot of that plastic is pretty low value... It doesn't add much to a consumers' wellbeing. If it wasn't available, we'd find alternatives and be fine. Not all the plastic. Some is good value and some is essential. Most though So... people look at all this mess. Some say "we should just stop making/using it." Others want to stop littering and improve waste disposal. In our inspired age, a common take is "market correcting." Try to internalize externality costs and "let the market work." None of these are unreasonable. Lame or failed attempts at implementing them are not disproofs of concept. They're just failed attempts... and "politics" is often to blame, making everyone extra upset about the whole thing. So, yes, I agree. We are progressing technologically, and that is very relevant if we're talking about ecological issues. OTOH, for all our current might, we're pretty impotent when it comes to simple basics like garbage. If plastics did not exist, we'd forgo the convenience of using plastic. We'd gain an end to our plastic waste problems. So perhaps/probably there are ways of ending our plastic waste problem that are more efficient. If they are higher, than it makes sense to just ban plastic. Where are they? Why haven't they happened? The cost ceiling isn't that high. Low performance.
CogitoCogito 4y ago
> In a 100 years we will be so far away in technology that our current problem will seem like a joke. Why do you believe this? It seems to me that our production of waste and environment destruction has been basically directly tied to our technological progress. Why assume that would change in the next 100 years?
- alfor 4y ago
  I see the dematerialisation going at an increasing rate: one smartphone replace how many things today? Think about how things have changed in the last 20 years with the internet. How we have improved efficiency all around, started the EV revolution, solar energy, AI, etc. Same with internet vs before: books, schools, libraries, stores, etc. Things like facebook marketplace: so much used stuff everywhere. For me it’s very easy to find almost anything I want used cheaply, but when I don’t need it anymore and want to sell it it’s harder (houses are already full to the rafters) The new generation is not as much interested in stuff, there is too much stuff everywhere. So I think we are very close to peak stuff and peak humans on the planet. Furthermore we are being more and more careful about long term thinking our our effects: pollution, ressources, global warming. I think we are overcorrecting, putting too much emphasis on these things and not enough on humans problems: meaning crisis, depression, suicide, nuclear war. To me it seems we are very close to a world of abondance and safety, but we still fighting with each others. We are looking in the rear view mirror to decide what is important, but the future that is coming is very different than the past. You can look at Tony Seba energy transition just to get an idea of what is coming on the energy front.

by alfor 4y ago

dalbasal 4y ago

Many "green laws" like plastic bags are signaling>effect. This is true. Sometimes this is even recognised. Awareness-raising and such. That said, externalities don't generally get solved without laws. I totally agreed that human progress, technological and otherwise cannot be ignored. On plastics... It's undeniably true that a large portion of the garbage you might find in the woods, streets, fields, lakes or oceans is plastic. Meanwhile, a lot of landfills and other waste disposal systems suck. They pollute by design, aren't used properly or designed correctly. It's also true that a lot of that plastic is pretty low value... It doesn't add much to a consumers' wellbeing. If it wasn't available, we'd find alternatives and be fine. Not all the plastic. Some is good value and some is essential. Most though So... people look at all this mess. Some say "we should just stop making/using it." Others want to stop littering and improve waste disposal. In our inspired age, a common take is "market correcting." Try to internalize externality costs and "let the market work." None of these are unreasonable. Lame or failed attempts at implementing them are not disproofs of concept. They're just failed attempts... and "politics" is often to blame, making everyone extra upset about the whole thing. So, yes, I agree. We are progressing technologically, and that is very relevant if we're talking about ecological issues. OTOH, for all our current might, we're pretty impotent when it comes to simple basics like garbage. If plastics did not exist, we'd forgo the convenience of using plastic. We'd gain an end to our plastic waste problems. So perhaps/probably there are ways of ending our plastic waste problem that are more efficient. If they are higher, than it makes sense to just ban plastic. Where are they? Why haven't they happened? The cost ceiling isn't that high. Low performance.

CogitoCogito 4y ago

> In a 100 years we will be so far away in technology that our current problem will seem like a joke. Why do you believe this? It seems to me that our production of waste and environment destruction has been basically directly tied to our technological progress. Why assume that would change in the next 100 years?

alfor 4y ago
I see the dematerialisation going at an increasing rate: one smartphone replace how many things today? Think about how things have changed in the last 20 years with the internet. How we have improved efficiency all around, started the EV revolution, solar energy, AI, etc. Same with internet vs before: books, schools, libraries, stores, etc. Things like facebook marketplace: so much used stuff everywhere. For me it’s very easy to find almost anything I want used cheaply, but when I don’t need it anymore and want to sell it it’s harder (houses are already full to the rafters) The new generation is not as much interested in stuff, there is too much stuff everywhere. So I think we are very close to peak stuff and peak humans on the planet. Furthermore we are being more and more careful about long term thinking our our effects: pollution, ressources, global warming. I think we are overcorrecting, putting too much emphasis on these things and not enough on humans problems: meaning crisis, depression, suicide, nuclear war. To me it seems we are very close to a world of abondance and safety, but we still fighting with each others. We are looking in the rear view mirror to decide what is important, but the future that is coming is very different than the past. You can look at Tony Seba energy transition just to get an idea of what is coming on the energy front.