6 ms·

I think practically all the problems with Windows will go away with one simple change. Do not ever reboot a computer without a user's consent. Any feature tha

by pooper 4y ago

I think practically all the problems with Windows will go away with one simple change. Do not ever reboot a computer without a user's consent. Any feature that requires automatic reboot should be opt-in. However, this exposes the real challenge. We cannot have informed consent without informed users. I think this problem will haunt us repeatedly in the future. We need users to know at least a little bit about their options. Only then can they make informed choices on what option to pick. This means people can't glaze over the details and not worry about them. This does not mean you have to be a computer wizard. You just need to know what you want and pick an option that is good for you. For example, I run this on Fedora: sudo dnf offline-upgrade download -y && time sudo dnf offline-upgrade reboot Any update requires a reboot. However, I am ok with it because I am positive each update comes after a lot of testing. More importantly, I am in control of when to run this update. I can't accidentally run it because it requires my sudo password. I used to wonder why no corporation complains about Windows Update. Then I learned that virtually all companies use group policy to change Windows Update behavior to suit their organization. Therefore, this is a non-issue for them. Welp.

hinkley 4y ago
> Do not ever reboot a computer without a user's consent. That also includes never crashing, which Microsoft has historically struggled with. If you don’t reboot in an orderly way, then the machine crashes while the user is doing something, and when it restarts everything is different. “Don’t restart” is insufficient for good UX here.
TheRealDunkirk 4y ago
The problem here is that a modern OS should only need to be rebooted when the kernel is updated, and Microsoft's security model requires updating the kernel all the time. On Linux, kernel security updates are usually, "Hey, update this when you get a chance, because a bad actor already on your system could escalate privilege in a rare scenario." With Windows, it's an almost-weekly, "Hey, update right now, because someone in another country is pwning all unpatched machines that aren't air-gapped from the internet."
- pooper 4y ago
  > a modern OS should only need to be rebooted when the kernel is updated You can still choose to reboot for every update. The point though is that it is a choice. sudo dnf offline-upgrade download -y && time sudo dnf offline-upgrade reboot It doesn't nag me at all other than ask me for my sudo password. It is perfect. Here is what I understand about dnf offline-upgrade > The process of restarting, applying updates, and then restarting again is called Offline Updates. Your computer boots into a special save-mode, where all other systems are disabled and where network access is unavailable. It then applies the updates and restarts. https://fedoramagazine.org/offline-updates-and-fedora-35/ https://fedoramagazine.org/offline-updates-and-fedora-35/ > With Windows, it's an almost-weekly, "Hey, update right now, because someone in another country is pwning all unpatched machines that aren't air-gapped from the internet." I see. I feel like I don't quite understand the extent of the problem. In any case, I am not qualified to even attempt to propose a fix. My mode of thinking was Google Chrome and derivatives are able to slowly walk along with increasingly scarier visible warnings asking users to restart the web browsers but they don't (as far as I know) reboot the web browser while the user is still using it. Even Google Chrome OS didn't do that (well, it didn't back when I had my cr-48). When I updated Mozilla Firefox on my Fedora machine, existing tabs continued to work. New tabs would come with a warning for me to close Firefox and open it again. This is the kind of warning I was getting rid of with offline-upgrade. I agree with my parent comment though. Updates are too bloated. Windows updates should be very fast with a modern processor (Intel eighth gen, AMD equivalent or greater), enough memory, and a fast SSD. Even DNF which has a very renowned reputation (at least among Fedora users) of being slow, is pretty reliably fast. I think the point that my parent comment was making was make people not dread rebooting their machine. My thought was 1. educate the users why reboots are essential 2. allow the users to postpone reboots indefinitely However, I don't know what to say if there is an active remote command exploitation in the wild. It is important to get the update to the user before the exploit. However, that goes against everything I've said so far. I guess this leads us to the status quo. Those who have the know-how to use group policy can opt out of certain Windows Update behavior. The rest can either learn to do this: and set up their own Windows Update server? Periodically check CVE and gate update releases? Not sure how it works... The reason I hesitate and say automatic reboot should be OPT-IN is sometimes I like to do some simple long running task like stitch photos I took into a video using ffmpeg. It can take hours on a slow laptop processor. It would really suck to do something like that and come back to see the computer rebooted itself.

by pooper 4y ago

hinkley 4y ago

> Do not ever reboot a computer without a user's consent. That also includes never crashing, which Microsoft has historically struggled with. If you don’t reboot in an orderly way, then the machine crashes while the user is doing something, and when it restarts everything is different. “Don’t restart” is insufficient for good UX here.

TheRealDunkirk 4y ago

The problem here is that a modern OS should only need to be rebooted when the kernel is updated, and Microsoft's security model requires updating the kernel all the time. On Linux, kernel security updates are usually, "Hey, update this when you get a chance, because a bad actor already on your system could escalate privilege in a rare scenario." With Windows, it's an almost-weekly, "Hey, update right now, because someone in another country is pwning all unpatched machines that aren't air-gapped from the internet."

pooper 4y ago
> a modern OS should only need to be rebooted when the kernel is updated You can still choose to reboot for every update. The point though is that it is a choice. sudo dnf offline-upgrade download -y && time sudo dnf offline-upgrade reboot It doesn't nag me at all other than ask me for my sudo password. It is perfect. Here is what I understand about dnf offline-upgrade > The process of restarting, applying updates, and then restarting again is called Offline Updates. Your computer boots into a special save-mode, where all other systems are disabled and where network access is unavailable. It then applies the updates and restarts. https://fedoramagazine.org/offline-updates-and-fedora-35/ https://fedoramagazine.org/offline-updates-and-fedora-35/ > With Windows, it's an almost-weekly, "Hey, update right now, because someone in another country is pwning all unpatched machines that aren't air-gapped from the internet." I see. I feel like I don't quite understand the extent of the problem. In any case, I am not qualified to even attempt to propose a fix. My mode of thinking was Google Chrome and derivatives are able to slowly walk along with increasingly scarier visible warnings asking users to restart the web browsers but they don't (as far as I know) reboot the web browser while the user is still using it. Even Google Chrome OS didn't do that (well, it didn't back when I had my cr-48). When I updated Mozilla Firefox on my Fedora machine, existing tabs continued to work. New tabs would come with a warning for me to close Firefox and open it again. This is the kind of warning I was getting rid of with offline-upgrade. I agree with my parent comment though. Updates are too bloated. Windows updates should be very fast with a modern processor (Intel eighth gen, AMD equivalent or greater), enough memory, and a fast SSD. Even DNF which has a very renowned reputation (at least among Fedora users) of being slow, is pretty reliably fast. I think the point that my parent comment was making was make people not dread rebooting their machine. My thought was 1. educate the users why reboots are essential 2. allow the users to postpone reboots indefinitely However, I don't know what to say if there is an active remote command exploitation in the wild. It is important to get the update to the user before the exploit. However, that goes against everything I've said so far. I guess this leads us to the status quo. Those who have the know-how to use group policy can opt out of certain Windows Update behavior. The rest can either learn to do this: and set up their own Windows Update server? Periodically check CVE and gate update releases? Not sure how it works... The reason I hesitate and say automatic reboot should be OPT-IN is sometimes I like to do some simple long running task like stitch photos I took into a video using ffmpeg. It can take hours on a slow laptop processor. It would really suck to do something like that and come back to see the computer rebooted itself.