6 ms·

One issue I see is that even when the advantages of plastic are practically non-existent people will still demand its use either out convenience or habit. Plast

One issue I see is that even when the advantages of plastic are practically non-existent people will still demand its use either out convenience or habit. Plastic bags come to mind as an obvious culprit. There are others though, too. My pet theory is that we're basically stripping the planet of all of the good, usable materials for "stuff" and plastic is a nice stop-gap to keep prices low. We don't do a good job of recognizing how inflation is tied to resource depletion.

zdragnar 4y ago
Plastic bags are an interesting example. There was a study a little while back that plastic bag bans at stores resulted in an overall increase use of plastic. The thinking was that people reused the thin store bags at least once (i.e. as a small trash liner for a work desk). Without those as an option, people switched to buying plastic bags, which were thicker and used much more material. Personally, we always opt for plastic bags at the store, and they always get reused once if not many times. Paper bags just don't seem to hold up as well for some reason.
- tedivm 4y ago
  The problem there is that the law didn't define "reusable" bags well enough, so stores just made slightly thicker plastic bags and called them reusable even though they really aren't. As a result people ended up using the same amount of bags but with far more plastic.
  - cptskippy 4y ago
    > The problem there is that the law didn't define "reusable" bags well enough There is no one law, this has occurred independently in municipalities across the globe.
  - smileysteve 4y ago
    Anecdotally, the thicker ones are very reusable; but consumers (the 90 percent) are ignorant about reusing and recycling.
  - Tagbert 4y ago
    I see the benefit of those heavier “reusable” bags as coming from the fact that they are less likely to blow away and get into the waterways. If you drop one it is more likely to be picked up and put in to the trash instead of ending up in a turtle’s breakfast.
- Workaccount2 4y ago
  Here in NJ we have a pretty strict plastic bag ban. It's all gone pretty smooth except for grocery delivery services. Instead of using one time use thin plastic bags, they now have to use reusable bags. That they never reuse. So places like our company that get office foodstuffs delivered weekly, end up throwing away stacks of thick plastic bags. Apparently though the legislature is working on a fix for this.
  - _glass 4y ago
    In Germany we switched to paper bags. And I really use tote bags, as most people I see in the shops. But why not just use paper bags?
    - AlgorithmicTime 4y ago
    - jhasse 4y ago
      rain
      - _glass 4y ago
        I am living in rainy Hamburg, and it's okay, right?
    - zdragnar 4y ago
      Paper bags available around here don't always have handles. As a result, you either can't carry as many (one hand holds a bag from the bottom) or you crumple or tear the bag at the top accidentally. Also, they tend to not hold as much weight as plastic bags. What's worse is that they're harder to reuse. Since they aren't resistant to water, there are fewer other uses that they are good for.
      - thenewthotness 4y ago
        Paper manufacturing and recycling isn’t carbon neutral either
- brnt 4y ago
  I used to use the single use bags I got while grocery shopping as trash bags. Perhaps not coincidentally, grocery purchases and trash production kept a pretty even pace. Now I have to buy my trash bags, which are not used twice and used in the same amount as the earlier bags. Also, I used to get much stuff unpacked, the bag was there to not throw a bunch of loose carrots, chicken legs and tomatoes in my carrying bag. Now, nearly everything comes prepackaged, which is single use obviously. I don't see how my plastic consumption is down. I guestimate it's up.
SamPatt 4y ago
Are you saying the current problems with inflation are caused by resource depletion, or that this is possible in theory? I'd be interested in any evidence of the former claim.
- jl6 4y ago
  Inflation is a complex problem that probably has multiple contributing factors, but one of those factors is the cost of energy, and one of the drivers of energy cost is the depletion of easily accessible fossil fuels.
- ericmay 4y ago
  I wouldn't say current problems because those are largely due to absurdly poor fiscal policy under the Trump administration [1], but just in general. I have no "evidence", just a pet theory/observation. The theory (and it may be a shit one, and I have no good claims here besides it's fun to discuss) goes like this, back in the day you could get real hardwood pretty cheap. You could build brick homes. Etc. Now you can't (i.e. it's very expensive) and that is reflected in ongoing inflation of the money supply and partially why we decoupled from gold. New technologies and materials can create substitute products, of course, but for many natural resources I think we're basically stripping or have stripped the planet for the time being. Think lobster and salmon, hardwood furniture, pollution, etc. [1] https://www.propublica.org/article/national-debt-trump https://www.propublica.org/article/national-debt-trump
  - nightski 4y ago
    It's interesting if you read that article you posted the trend was pretty normal until COVID which speaks volumes. They blame it on the tax cut but the data just doesn't align with that theory. Specifically the chart at https://assets-c3.propublica.org/images/articles/_threeTwo800w/20210114-borrowing-increased-under-trump-despite-promise-to-repay-national-debt-small.png https://assets-c3.propublica.org/images/articles/_threeTwo80... In reality the president doesn't control the budget. They influence it through an agenda but it's ultimately up to congress. Congress passed a lot of stimulus in response to the pandemic and much of it was bi-partisan.
bagacrap 4y ago
isn't convenience a practical benefit? Cost as well, particularly for lower income individuals. Plastic bags actually are practically superior to the alternatives in many ways. They are stronger, smaller and more water resistant than paper. They may use less material per trip than reusable bags which take ~50x more resources but are still prone to eventual breakage. Basically everything about one time use plastics is amazing, except the potential for environmental harm.
- skipants 4y ago
  I'd say the alternative is cloth reusable bags rather than paper. It's what I use. It's stronger and easier to handle than plastic; you just need to remember to bring one with you. My partner keeps one in her bag permanently in case she shops on a whim.
  - smileysteve 4y ago
    Cloth (cotton synthetic blends) take more energy and water than both plastic and paper. But if you can reuse for !years! Are worth the price. Personally, i reuse a backpack from high school (20 years ago) with a mended zipper. I can carry about 20lbs in it.
- phil21 4y ago
  I'm not convinced plastic bag bans save the environment much in terms of co2 production or oil use or whatnot. However - since the bag ban has been enacted here in Chicago, the amount of plastic bag litter is noticeably less. Worth banning something? Maybe, maybe not. But I'd take an educated guess that more plastic is reaching landfills vs. waterways due to it - even if the total amount of plastic is more overall.
poulsbohemian 4y ago
>even when the advantages of plastic are practically non-existent people will still demand its use either out convenience or habit. Or, if manufactures / retailers / etc adopted other options would consumers simply adapt? The problem here is supply side not demand side - consumers have few choices.

zdragnar 4y ago

Plastic bags are an interesting example. There was a study a little while back that plastic bag bans at stores resulted in an overall increase use of plastic. The thinking was that people reused the thin store bags at least once (i.e. as a small trash liner for a work desk). Without those as an option, people switched to buying plastic bags, which were thicker and used much more material. Personally, we always opt for plastic bags at the store, and they always get reused once if not many times. Paper bags just don't seem to hold up as well for some reason.

tedivm 4y ago
The problem there is that the law didn't define "reusable" bags well enough, so stores just made slightly thicker plastic bags and called them reusable even though they really aren't. As a result people ended up using the same amount of bags but with far more plastic.
- cptskippy 4y ago
  > The problem there is that the law didn't define "reusable" bags well enough There is no one law, this has occurred independently in municipalities across the globe.
- smileysteve 4y ago
  Anecdotally, the thicker ones are very reusable; but consumers (the 90 percent) are ignorant about reusing and recycling.
- Tagbert 4y ago
  I see the benefit of those heavier “reusable” bags as coming from the fact that they are less likely to blow away and get into the waterways. If you drop one it is more likely to be picked up and put in to the trash instead of ending up in a turtle’s breakfast.
Workaccount2 4y ago
Here in NJ we have a pretty strict plastic bag ban. It's all gone pretty smooth except for grocery delivery services. Instead of using one time use thin plastic bags, they now have to use reusable bags. That they never reuse. So places like our company that get office foodstuffs delivered weekly, end up throwing away stacks of thick plastic bags. Apparently though the legislature is working on a fix for this.
- _glass 4y ago
  In Germany we switched to paper bags. And I really use tote bags, as most people I see in the shops. But why not just use paper bags?
  - AlgorithmicTime 4y ago
  - jhasse 4y ago
    rain
    - _glass 4y ago
      I am living in rainy Hamburg, and it's okay, right?
  - zdragnar 4y ago
    Paper bags available around here don't always have handles. As a result, you either can't carry as many (one hand holds a bag from the bottom) or you crumple or tear the bag at the top accidentally. Also, they tend to not hold as much weight as plastic bags. What's worse is that they're harder to reuse. Since they aren't resistant to water, there are fewer other uses that they are good for.
    - thenewthotness 4y ago
      Paper manufacturing and recycling isn’t carbon neutral either
brnt 4y ago
I used to use the single use bags I got while grocery shopping as trash bags. Perhaps not coincidentally, grocery purchases and trash production kept a pretty even pace. Now I have to buy my trash bags, which are not used twice and used in the same amount as the earlier bags. Also, I used to get much stuff unpacked, the bag was there to not throw a bunch of loose carrots, chicken legs and tomatoes in my carrying bag. Now, nearly everything comes prepackaged, which is single use obviously. I don't see how my plastic consumption is down. I guestimate it's up.

SamPatt 4y ago

Are you saying the current problems with inflation are caused by resource depletion, or that this is possible in theory? I'd be interested in any evidence of the former claim.

jl6 4y ago
Inflation is a complex problem that probably has multiple contributing factors, but one of those factors is the cost of energy, and one of the drivers of energy cost is the depletion of easily accessible fossil fuels.
ericmay 4y ago
I wouldn't say current problems because those are largely due to absurdly poor fiscal policy under the Trump administration [1], but just in general. I have no "evidence", just a pet theory/observation. The theory (and it may be a shit one, and I have no good claims here besides it's fun to discuss) goes like this, back in the day you could get real hardwood pretty cheap. You could build brick homes. Etc. Now you can't (i.e. it's very expensive) and that is reflected in ongoing inflation of the money supply and partially why we decoupled from gold. New technologies and materials can create substitute products, of course, but for many natural resources I think we're basically stripping or have stripped the planet for the time being. Think lobster and salmon, hardwood furniture, pollution, etc. [1] https://www.propublica.org/article/national-debt-trump https://www.propublica.org/article/national-debt-trump
- nightski 4y ago
  It's interesting if you read that article you posted the trend was pretty normal until COVID which speaks volumes. They blame it on the tax cut but the data just doesn't align with that theory. Specifically the chart at https://assets-c3.propublica.org/images/articles/_threeTwo800w/20210114-borrowing-increased-under-trump-despite-promise-to-repay-national-debt-small.png https://assets-c3.propublica.org/images/articles/_threeTwo80... In reality the president doesn't control the budget. They influence it through an agenda but it's ultimately up to congress. Congress passed a lot of stimulus in response to the pandemic and much of it was bi-partisan.

bagacrap 4y ago

isn't convenience a practical benefit? Cost as well, particularly for lower income individuals. Plastic bags actually are practically superior to the alternatives in many ways. They are stronger, smaller and more water resistant than paper. They may use less material per trip than reusable bags which take ~50x more resources but are still prone to eventual breakage. Basically everything about one time use plastics is amazing, except the potential for environmental harm.

skipants 4y ago
I'd say the alternative is cloth reusable bags rather than paper. It's what I use. It's stronger and easier to handle than plastic; you just need to remember to bring one with you. My partner keeps one in her bag permanently in case she shops on a whim.
- smileysteve 4y ago
  Cloth (cotton synthetic blends) take more energy and water than both plastic and paper. But if you can reuse for !years! Are worth the price. Personally, i reuse a backpack from high school (20 years ago) with a mended zipper. I can carry about 20lbs in it.
phil21 4y ago
I'm not convinced plastic bag bans save the environment much in terms of co2 production or oil use or whatnot. However - since the bag ban has been enacted here in Chicago, the amount of plastic bag litter is noticeably less. Worth banning something? Maybe, maybe not. But I'd take an educated guess that more plastic is reaching landfills vs. waterways due to it - even if the total amount of plastic is more overall.

poulsbohemian 4y ago

>even when the advantages of plastic are practically non-existent people will still demand its use either out convenience or habit. Or, if manufactures / retailers / etc adopted other options would consumers simply adapt? The problem here is supply side not demand side - consumers have few choices.