5 ms·

I get that this may feel demeaning, but come on, we're trying in the modern world to do something better than the inhumanity of locking the factory doors 100 ye

I get that this may feel demeaning, but come on, we're trying in the modern world to do something better than the inhumanity of locking the factory doors 100 years ago or yanking a guy's union book, and now people are complaining about how psychologically scarring it is to be treated with enough decency to receive a paycheck and be given a low enough stress role to find a new one? Jeez... recognize this for the progress that it is!

kemiller2002 4y ago
Not to mention in the U.S. health insurance is tied to employment. Firing someone not only stops income from coming in, but also doubles the cost (in a lot of cases) of insurance. On top of this, firing someone allows the company to dispute unemployment. Giving someone to find a new job would be an amazing gift.
JauntyHatAngle 4y ago
I don't see why past progress should be an impediment to future progress.
- Broken_Hippo 4y ago
  Exactly this. Just because things were worse in the past doesn't mean they are good enough now - just not as bad as yesteryear.
kennend3 4y ago
I take it you did not read the article? The individual stated they would rather have been fired instead of having to undergo that process. "Eliza had effectively been frozen out by her employer. Barely a month later, she quit. “It was humiliating – I was made to feel worthless,” she says. “It was the worst experience of my career: I’d rather have been just fired on the spot and paid off than have to go through that.”"
- whiddershins 4y ago
  Fired and paid off.
  - nerdponx 4y ago
    Yes, better to be paid a severance than gradually frozen out.
  - kennend3 4y ago
    Obviously they live in a country with labour laws which require things like severance pay, holiday pay, etc. I don't see the point you are attempting to make? They should be fired, but not get what they are legally entitled?
    - whoknew1122 4y ago
      Her humiliation clearly wasn't so bad that she'd forego her severance. So how bad was it, really?
      - kennend3 4y ago
        > So how bad was it, really? Did you contact the author and ask?
        whoknew1122 4y ago
        No, because that's asinine. The question was rhetorical.
  - alistairSH 4y ago
    Definitely not the US, that's for sure. RIFed as part of a broader restructure and you might get some severance. Fired outright? I wouldn't count on it.
    - slillibri 4y ago
vanderZwan 4y ago
> we're trying in the modern world to do something better than the inhumanity of locking the factory doors 100 years ago Maybe, just maybe, some of us don't like to set the bar as low as "let the subhumans die in case of a fire".
tux3 4y ago
Progress is good, we should indeed recognize that things have improved, and you're right to say it. But complacency is the enemy of progress. As long as there are valid reasons to complain, then people should keep constructively pointing out the flaws. A complaint is not a negative thing. It is the very driver of the same progress that you want people to recognize. If we'd like more of that in the future, then it is simply good and right to keep going. If you want to try to do better by letting people keep a paycheck on a lower responsibility role until you push them out, it'd be better to have a system where the offboarding period is explicit, communicated amiably, and transparent. That could just take the form of severance pay, or it could be something new. If on the other hand you're just avoiding confrontation and hoping sufficient misery will make the problem go away, there's nothing virtuous about this. You don't get to ask for gratefulness in that situation.
canucklady 4y ago
The problem with being sidelined like this is that it can drag on and on until it's a resume liability. I'm at a company that's a bad fit right now - I hate it, my boss doesn't know what to do with me, but I was strung along for months without any discussion of my performance. I make a great salary but I feel like I need to stay long enough to make it not look suspicious, and every day I log on and do nothing for 8 hours I feel more burnt out and unprepared for a new role.
- datavirtue 4y ago
  No one has ever been able to keep me busy. Ever. I have gotten into discussions about this with colleagues and managers. The managers don't really care and just told me to chill and hang out (below my previous ambition level) and others have pointed out that they keep me around for insurance. Basically sand bag me until needed to fix a catastrophy or oversee other teams, departments, or initiatives that are at risk. I don't really like it. I have (or used to have) a voracious work ethic that demanded I be busy on high-impact projects 24/7. However, these projects are rare. Part of it is due to the constant adrenaline rush of being in a startup and having to save the company or a part of it on a regular basis. Sort of how soldiers have trouble adapting to ho-hum civilian life where the problems are mundane and they miss the trench-level comraderie. Going from a startup where everything matters and you are surrounded by friends to a big company where nothing seems to matter and relationships are tempered by bureaucracy can be depressing as hell.
  - em-bee 4y ago
    i get paid a monthly retainer to wait and respond to calls for help. often times i have nothing to do. but that's the definition of my work. i could go and find more things to do, but i don't have to. maybe it helps if you reframe your current situation in that way. apart from that, if you can, i'd look at side projects that relate to your work
- maccard 4y ago
  I don't know much about your current situation, but if you've got a short stint at a company it's not going to matter too much. "I joined expecting X but when I got there it was Y. I gave it a chance for Z months but it didn't work out" is one of the best answers to "why are you looking for a new role?" If you've got 3-4 of these in the other hand, that's when you might just need to bring and bear it
ramphastidae 4y ago
samsolomon 4y ago
People are going to be upset about being fired no matter how it's done. I worked in an agency once where we were unable to renew a contract with a large client. About a month later 75% of the agency was called into the gym for a discussion. Everyone who did not get called into the gym was let go. There was a lot of confusion about who was supposed to be at this meeting and it really was terrible for everyone involved. The people there were good and well-meaning, but that was the absolute worst way to do it. I'm not sure how this was handled by the woman's manager in the article, but "We're starting to transition your responsibilities. We'll keep paying you, providing healthcare and you don't have to have a gap in your resume, but please look for something else" comes off as pretty respectful to me.
toss1 4y ago
Yup, and take advantage of it. If there was ever a situation where it was good and useful to implement last week's employer-complaint-of-the-week, people having two full time jobs, this is it. Illegitimati non carborundum — Don't let the bastards grind you down. Start interviewing, then start working, do the minimum required, and keep taking their money. Much easier in a remote situation, not so much if they stick you in a windowless office 9-5... so BYOD, VPN, tethering to your phone... But no matter what, reject the insult from your brain and move on.
whoknew1122 4y ago
This. I get that the same experience can affect people differently, but this shouldn't be traumatic. From my American perspective -- She had 'probation' extended. - My state is a 'right-to-work' state. Meaning a contract is pretty much worthless, and there's no probation. She wanted to be fired and 'paid on the spot'? - Paid what? My manager could literally call me up this moment and fire me. For no reason. And I won't get any money, unless the company I work for elected to give me some pittance. There's no legal or societal expectation that they pay me anything. In my experience, instead of feeling worthless, she should've taken her paid free time and brushed up her resume/skills for her next job.
- giaour 4y ago
  There's a cultural expectation that a fired or laid off employee is entitled to severance (unless they were fired "for cause"), even in the absence of a legal requirement. You are also entitled to state unemployment benefits in the US if you are fired or laid off (again, unless fired "for cause"), whereas you're just on your own if you quit.
mullen 4y ago
Agreed. I don't know what she is complaining about. For Tech people, we don't understand that getting a new job only takes a couple of weeks at the most. In some fields, it can take 6 months or a year to get another job. People getting the polite, "You are done working here but you are not fired", is a huge help for them. They can look for a new job while still pulling a check and not having that gap in their resume. Also, there are other options for people at larger companies like transfering to another department or whole other subsidiary. Now that I think about it, as a person in tech, I would rather have this than just get fired. Atleast I don't have to explain to anyone that I got fired or come up with a awkward lie about why I am not a company and looking for a new job.

kemiller2002 4y ago

Not to mention in the U.S. health insurance is tied to employment. Firing someone not only stops income from coming in, but also doubles the cost (in a lot of cases) of insurance. On top of this, firing someone allows the company to dispute unemployment. Giving someone to find a new job would be an amazing gift.

JauntyHatAngle 4y ago

I don't see why past progress should be an impediment to future progress.

Broken_Hippo 4y ago
Exactly this. Just because things were worse in the past doesn't mean they are good enough now - just not as bad as yesteryear.

kennend3 4y ago

I take it you did not read the article? The individual stated they would rather have been fired instead of having to undergo that process. "Eliza had effectively been frozen out by her employer. Barely a month later, she quit. “It was humiliating – I was made to feel worthless,” she says. “It was the worst experience of my career: I’d rather have been just fired on the spot and paid off than have to go through that.”"

whiddershins 4y ago
Fired and paid off.
- nerdponx 4y ago
  Yes, better to be paid a severance than gradually frozen out.
- kennend3 4y ago
  Obviously they live in a country with labour laws which require things like severance pay, holiday pay, etc. I don't see the point you are attempting to make? They should be fired, but not get what they are legally entitled?
  - whoknew1122 4y ago
    Her humiliation clearly wasn't so bad that she'd forego her severance. So how bad was it, really?
    - kennend3 4y ago
      > So how bad was it, really? Did you contact the author and ask?
      - whoknew1122 4y ago
        No, because that's asinine. The question was rhetorical.
- alistairSH 4y ago
  Definitely not the US, that's for sure. RIFed as part of a broader restructure and you might get some severance. Fired outright? I wouldn't count on it.
  - slillibri 4y ago

vanderZwan 4y ago

> we're trying in the modern world to do something better than the inhumanity of locking the factory doors 100 years ago Maybe, just maybe, some of us don't like to set the bar as low as "let the subhumans die in case of a fire".

tux3 4y ago

Progress is good, we should indeed recognize that things have improved, and you're right to say it. But complacency is the enemy of progress. As long as there are valid reasons to complain, then people should keep constructively pointing out the flaws. A complaint is not a negative thing. It is the very driver of the same progress that you want people to recognize. If we'd like more of that in the future, then it is simply good and right to keep going. If you want to try to do better by letting people keep a paycheck on a lower responsibility role until you push them out, it'd be better to have a system where the offboarding period is explicit, communicated amiably, and transparent. That could just take the form of severance pay, or it could be something new. If on the other hand you're just avoiding confrontation and hoping sufficient misery will make the problem go away, there's nothing virtuous about this. You don't get to ask for gratefulness in that situation.

canucklady 4y ago

The problem with being sidelined like this is that it can drag on and on until it's a resume liability. I'm at a company that's a bad fit right now - I hate it, my boss doesn't know what to do with me, but I was strung along for months without any discussion of my performance. I make a great salary but I feel like I need to stay long enough to make it not look suspicious, and every day I log on and do nothing for 8 hours I feel more burnt out and unprepared for a new role.

datavirtue 4y ago
No one has ever been able to keep me busy. Ever. I have gotten into discussions about this with colleagues and managers. The managers don't really care and just told me to chill and hang out (below my previous ambition level) and others have pointed out that they keep me around for insurance. Basically sand bag me until needed to fix a catastrophy or oversee other teams, departments, or initiatives that are at risk. I don't really like it. I have (or used to have) a voracious work ethic that demanded I be busy on high-impact projects 24/7. However, these projects are rare. Part of it is due to the constant adrenaline rush of being in a startup and having to save the company or a part of it on a regular basis. Sort of how soldiers have trouble adapting to ho-hum civilian life where the problems are mundane and they miss the trench-level comraderie. Going from a startup where everything matters and you are surrounded by friends to a big company where nothing seems to matter and relationships are tempered by bureaucracy can be depressing as hell.
- em-bee 4y ago
  i get paid a monthly retainer to wait and respond to calls for help. often times i have nothing to do. but that's the definition of my work. i could go and find more things to do, but i don't have to. maybe it helps if you reframe your current situation in that way. apart from that, if you can, i'd look at side projects that relate to your work
maccard 4y ago
I don't know much about your current situation, but if you've got a short stint at a company it's not going to matter too much. "I joined expecting X but when I got there it was Y. I gave it a chance for Z months but it didn't work out" is one of the best answers to "why are you looking for a new role?" If you've got 3-4 of these in the other hand, that's when you might just need to bring and bear it

ramphastidae 4y ago

samsolomon 4y ago

People are going to be upset about being fired no matter how it's done. I worked in an agency once where we were unable to renew a contract with a large client. About a month later 75% of the agency was called into the gym for a discussion. Everyone who did not get called into the gym was let go. There was a lot of confusion about who was supposed to be at this meeting and it really was terrible for everyone involved. The people there were good and well-meaning, but that was the absolute worst way to do it. I'm not sure how this was handled by the woman's manager in the article, but "We're starting to transition your responsibilities. We'll keep paying you, providing healthcare and you don't have to have a gap in your resume, but please look for something else" comes off as pretty respectful to me.

toss1 4y ago

Yup, and take advantage of it. If there was ever a situation where it was good and useful to implement last week's employer-complaint-of-the-week, people having two full time jobs, this is it. Illegitimati non carborundum — Don't let the bastards grind you down. Start interviewing, then start working, do the minimum required, and keep taking their money. Much easier in a remote situation, not so much if they stick you in a windowless office 9-5... so BYOD, VPN, tethering to your phone... But no matter what, reject the insult from your brain and move on.

whoknew1122 4y ago

This. I get that the same experience can affect people differently, but this shouldn't be traumatic. From my American perspective -- She had 'probation' extended. - My state is a 'right-to-work' state. Meaning a contract is pretty much worthless, and there's no probation. She wanted to be fired and 'paid on the spot'? - Paid what? My manager could literally call me up this moment and fire me. For no reason. And I won't get any money, unless the company I work for elected to give me some pittance. There's no legal or societal expectation that they pay me anything. In my experience, instead of feeling worthless, she should've taken her paid free time and brushed up her resume/skills for her next job.

giaour 4y ago
There's a cultural expectation that a fired or laid off employee is entitled to severance (unless they were fired "for cause"), even in the absence of a legal requirement. You are also entitled to state unemployment benefits in the US if you are fired or laid off (again, unless fired "for cause"), whereas you're just on your own if you quit.

mullen 4y ago

Agreed. I don't know what she is complaining about. For Tech people, we don't understand that getting a new job only takes a couple of weeks at the most. In some fields, it can take 6 months or a year to get another job. People getting the polite, "You are done working here but you are not fired", is a huge help for them. They can look for a new job while still pulling a check and not having that gap in their resume. Also, there are other options for people at larger companies like transfering to another department or whole other subsidiary. Now that I think about it, as a person in tech, I would rather have this than just get fired. Atleast I don't have to explain to anyone that I got fired or come up with a awkward lie about why I am not a company and looking for a new job.