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I once worked for a company that transferred low performing engineers to customer service over the phone support rather than firing them. That way they could sa

I once worked for a company that transferred low performing engineers to customer service over the phone support rather than firing them. That way they could say they never lay off employees. Which you could argue is better that firing. But working customer support was the worst. They did have excellent phone support though.

DelightOne 4y ago
In some countries this might be illegal, with having their work defined in their employment contract?
- marcus_holmes 4y ago
  In the UK/Australia, this would definitely qualify as constructive dismissal just for the role change. If they changed the salary then even more so. Of course, if they didn't change the salary then it could turn out interesting; the customer support folks could demand equal pay as the ex-engineers.
  - badpun 4y ago
    That's what happened in Poland in 1990s when France Telecom took bought the local telco monopoly (Telekomunikacja Polska) from the Polish state. FT wanted to get rid of lots of relatively well-paid office workers (largely due to automation making them no longer necessary), but were unable to do so, as keeping employment was part of the sales contract. However, they were allowed to move people around the company, provided they still pay them the same salaries. The FT's "solution" was to move hundreds (probably even thousands) of people into call centers and subject them to what today would definitely be recognized as mobbing. A family member went through that - she said that, whoever could quit quickly did, and people who had no alternatives stayed on the job largely only thanks to tranquilizers and other psych meds.
    - hikingsimulator 4y ago
      This is a very common practice at French telecom companies, and beyond. A massive lawsuit occured when a string of suicides at Orange Telecom in France happened. Managers would systematically psychologically harass workers till they quit, or die. All in order to meet "headcount reduction targets." Call that practice the good, old Roman decimation. The French managing practice of moving someone in a spot where they will get bored out, if not killed out is called "placardisation," or "to put someone in a cupboard." Demeaning and morally unacceptable, but something that business majors at French grandes écoles are taught is "une normalité," a given, a fact of business life. [a] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_S.A._suicides https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_S.A._suicides
- gowld 4y ago
  It's only legal if employer refuses to file the proper paperwork (firing / layoff) if they leave and it is ruled constructive dismissal.
kennend3 4y ago
Depending on your country, this could be against the labour laws. here (Canada) what you outline is a violation. https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/programs/laws-regulations/labour/interpretations-policies/constructive-dismissal.html https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/progr... Changes in Powers or Duties The most common cases of constructive dismissal are where the employee leaves as a result of material changes in powers or duties. Usually, a main area of responsibility is removed or the employee's duties are decreased; for example, a plant superintendent whose duties are confined to those of yard foreman. Such actions are in fact a dismissal in disguise, whether or not they are accompanied by changes in salary or job title. Commonly, this form of constructive dismissal involves a significant loss of prestige and status as a result of a corporate reorganization or change in reporting arrangements.

DelightOne 4y ago

In some countries this might be illegal, with having their work defined in their employment contract?

marcus_holmes 4y ago
In the UK/Australia, this would definitely qualify as constructive dismissal just for the role change. If they changed the salary then even more so. Of course, if they didn't change the salary then it could turn out interesting; the customer support folks could demand equal pay as the ex-engineers.
- badpun 4y ago
  That's what happened in Poland in 1990s when France Telecom took bought the local telco monopoly (Telekomunikacja Polska) from the Polish state. FT wanted to get rid of lots of relatively well-paid office workers (largely due to automation making them no longer necessary), but were unable to do so, as keeping employment was part of the sales contract. However, they were allowed to move people around the company, provided they still pay them the same salaries. The FT's "solution" was to move hundreds (probably even thousands) of people into call centers and subject them to what today would definitely be recognized as mobbing. A family member went through that - she said that, whoever could quit quickly did, and people who had no alternatives stayed on the job largely only thanks to tranquilizers and other psych meds.
  - hikingsimulator 4y ago
    This is a very common practice at French telecom companies, and beyond. A massive lawsuit occured when a string of suicides at Orange Telecom in France happened. Managers would systematically psychologically harass workers till they quit, or die. All in order to meet "headcount reduction targets." Call that practice the good, old Roman decimation. The French managing practice of moving someone in a spot where they will get bored out, if not killed out is called "placardisation," or "to put someone in a cupboard." Demeaning and morally unacceptable, but something that business majors at French grandes écoles are taught is "une normalité," a given, a fact of business life. [a] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_S.A._suicides https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_S.A._suicides
gowld 4y ago
It's only legal if employer refuses to file the proper paperwork (firing / layoff) if they leave and it is ruled constructive dismissal.

kennend3 4y ago

Depending on your country, this could be against the labour laws. here (Canada) what you outline is a violation. https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/programs/laws-regulations/labour/interpretations-policies/constructive-dismissal.html https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/progr... Changes in Powers or Duties The most common cases of constructive dismissal are where the employee leaves as a result of material changes in powers or duties. Usually, a main area of responsibility is removed or the employee's duties are decreased; for example, a plant superintendent whose duties are confined to those of yard foreman. Such actions are in fact a dismissal in disguise, whether or not they are accompanied by changes in salary or job title. Commonly, this form of constructive dismissal involves a significant loss of prestige and status as a result of a corporate reorganization or change in reporting arrangements.