5 ms·

Maybe you can't make money doing what you love

68 points by bdfh42 18y ago

jyothi 18y ago
"Ars gratia artis" Explains why great artists lived poor financially. But there are always who bring in the genius of AND with art meets living (commercial). They ofcourse are geniuses.
- zandorg 18y ago
  Or just get a good manager.
wallflower 18y ago
Two quotable quotes: "Work does not necessarily make you happy, but it may provide you the money to do the things that make you happy." "If all you get from your job is a paycheck, you're underpaid" I don't think it's a trade-off if you don't love your job. However, if you truly hate your job - why are you doing it? I was a workaholic for the longest time and I still am - I am re-applying my workaholic tendencies to outside-the-cube. Software development bankrolls ventures like learning Spanish and Salsa dancing.
jcromartie 18y ago
I think Hugh MacLeod's How To Be Creative gives this subject a better treatment. I haven't forgotten the very simple "Sex & Cash Theory." Creative people need two jobs: one is sexy, and one pays the bills.
MHollender 18y ago
"Doing what you love is as important as ever" Eh. Does the sticky sugar-candy new-age optimism pouring out of blogs like this disturb only me? It's pure bullshit. Work was NOT meant as something to love. Work was NOT mean to provide you means do things that make you happy. Take a good, hard look around at the world, dammit: work was meant to give you a chance to SURVIVE. Perhaps some people who have very well functioning minds - very optimisting, easily get enthusiastic, easily get to love people and/or things - may eventually learn to love their work, or work on something they love. But for most of us it's out of question. Work, therefore you hate it. Get over. Don't raise unreasonable expectations in people, please.
MicahWedemeyer 18y ago
There are plenty of careers that meld creativity and commercial gains, like being an architect or interior designer. Don't you think an architect takes pride in seeing one of their buildings standing against the skyline? Sure, you might not get rich making splatter paintings, but you can still be creative and make money at the same time. People will pay for things that are aesthetically pleasing.
- bokonist 18y ago
  Architects don't make much money. And within the field, there is strong inverse correlation between prestige of the job and the pay. Some of the most prestigious New York firms actually pay their employees less than minimum wage. And I'm not talking about interns - I'm talking full time employees with masters in architecture getting paid virtually nothing. On the flip side, if an architect does project management for construction, they get paid a lot more.
sfamiliar 18y ago
You have to also love making money. I love making money. By definition, it is impossible for me to become unhappy if I have to make money doing what I love. /obvious. I had a girlfriend like this: she was an excellent photographer, had a degree in fine arts with a photography specialty, but didn't want to make money doing it -- she didn't want it to become her job. This discrepancy made her miserable, not only because she generally didn't get to take pictures, and didn't get to make the money she could be making, but also because she wasn't using her degree. I went to school for CS, not because I love it (though I do at times) but because the market forecast was good, and I wanted to retire early. What I like about programming is the freedom to innovate, to solve problems. I get to solve problems, solve puzzles with my job. That's great. When I get done working, I'll write a book -- that'll be even better. I think it's enough to work doing something you like, to support what you love.
mhb 18y ago
First "grow the economy" and now "surface your ideas". Ugh.
- fallentimes 18y ago
  Classic Godin.
LostInTheWoods 18y ago
"That passion you have for art... perhaps making your painting commercial enough to sell will squeeze the joy out of it." Once you cross the line of doing something to pay the bills, instead of doing it for the joy of doing it, then it becomes work. And, work, ultimately sucks.
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
- kirse 18y ago
  I was trying to figure out when a hobby I love turns into something I hate, and you just nailed it for me. Needed to pay bills = work. It also becomes work once you believe you have to turn your hobby into something that makes money (because everyone - especially this site - tells you to find your passion and then make money from it). Some pursuits are better left intrinsicly rewarding.
aditya 18y ago
This is another example of Seth's cookiecutter gurudom. I don't think it applies to startups at all, though. Also, stop rehashing the same old, 'If you commercialize your art, it stops being satisfying' BS. We knew that forever ago. I think in the connected universe it is easy to to do something you love on the side AND make money from it AND be happy doing it. Like that guy who makes $2k/yr because he sold some photos to iStockphoto 10 years ago. Not to bring ad hominem into this, but why has Seth become so un-original?
- Hexstream 18y ago
  "become"?
coglethorpe 18y ago
I have a feeling Seth Godin loves what he does for money.
redorb 18y ago
if you're going to make a living at it, it helps to find a niche where money flows as a regular consequence of the success of your idea as soon as you focus on your art and leave the money behind, you may just discover that this focus turns out to be the secret of actually breaking through and making money. thats the meat of the articles, overall good ideas..
fallentimes 18y ago
Yeah, but more than likely you can do something doing what you like.
bmelina 18y ago
In some fields doing what you love won't pay your bills. But haven't you noticed that usually people that do what they love they are really good at it? And you keep wondering how he/she does it? A lot of people choose to work in a field that maybe it doesn't suits them or maybe because they have to because of the trends, but be sure that one day they will end up miserable and with no time to do what they really love because time may have passed.
iigs 18y ago
I think there's some kind of implicit sentiment that the happiness from doing something you enjoy and getting paid are additive when you do something you enjoy. I'm not sure that's true. I love computers, UNIX/Linux, scalable architectures, yadda yadda yadda. I work in the field, and am reasonably well compensated, but I've always said "I'd keep doing computers even if I was the one paying." Doing something you're passionate about for someone else (whether your customer is a manager, or you're self employed and your customer is the one paying) isn't inherently pleasurable if the customer's goals aren't perfectly aligned with yours -- in fact it can be deeply saddening to know there's a better way to accomplish something, if only some business reality (cost, technical constraint) wasn't in the way. For me, the big win working in my favorite field is that the job is easy -- I have a great pool of contacts, I've spent over 80% of my entire life immersed in the problems and solutions of this field. That said, I'm pretty sure I'd enjoy computing a lot more again if I went back to bagging groceries -- 100% of the computing I'd do would be computing for pleasure, no more chores or building stuff for people that have needs that are different than mine.
laktek 18y ago
My thoughts on this : http://www.web2media.net/laktek/?p=90 http://www.web2media.net/laktek/?p=90
bbgm 18y ago
I mostly agree with most of the comments, especially since Seth oversimplifies, but he has a point. I know a couple of people who loved painting and graphic design, but lost all love for it when it became a career, so they switched to another career and started enjoying design again. It wasn't that they couldn't make money from design, but making it a career took the joy and creativity out of it. HN might just skewed towards those lucky few who are able to make money from things they love. Personally, if I am not doing something I love, it's not worth it.
jerf 18y ago
I think he misses the real problem. It is easier to be noticed. It is easier to get "picked up". However, it's easier for everyone, which means that the supply of niche content is radically increasing... and when supply increases, the price drops. In the end, the key is still to move from niche to large, and we've moved from "like winning the lottery" under the old system to... "like winning the lottery" under the new system, too. The barrier of entry is lower, but it's even more random behind the barrier.
pg 18y ago
In order to monetize your work, you'll probably corrupt it, taking out the magic in search of dollars. The great artists of the Renaissance were very highly paid. In fact they were probably the best paid craftsmen of the time. And they are hard to beat for magic.
- qhoxie 18y ago
  The better the artist, the more they are able to explore their ideas and abilities. It's not universal but it's as circumstantially true now as it was then.
- crux_ 18y ago
  Not to pee on your parade, the only one of that gaggle of technicians that was any good was Hieronymus Bosch! </flamewar>
  - pg 18y ago
    I miss being on vacation and not having access to wifi...
    - crux_ 18y ago
      Take it in the spirit it was offered.... namely, that of post-debate talking headism. Something of a communicable disease, I fear. ;)
- Alex3917 18y ago
  It's very well documented that rewards diminish both intrinsic motivation and creativity, so this is mostly a moot point. But for the sake of argument: A) The psychological effect of working for a church/patron is probably not analogous to, say, trying to produce a blog post that makes the front page of Digg. To borrow from Herzberg's two-factor theory, their patronage was more of a hygiene factor than a motivation factor. B) You're only looking at the best pieces from the best artists. It's likely that the average artist was producing mostly shit in hopes of getting paid. In fact probably even the best artists were producing mostly shit in hopes of getting paid.
zandorg 18y ago
I'm a pop musician, and I put out a few records, but I found that once committed to vinyl (not necessarily with the medium of CD-R), I got bored with those songs and couldn't enjoy them anymore. Vinyl is the most long-lasting medium for music, so this act of your music going on permanent art is more satisfying than the music itself.
cousin_it 18y ago
I read it as: "Produce great content for free and let Google make money off it." Does Seth see the conflict of interest? Or is it the actual reason behind the post?
known 18y ago
Being successful is key and money is an addon.

68 points by bdfh42 18y ago

"Ars gratia artis" Explains why great artists lived poor financially. But there are always who bring in the genius of AND with art meets living (commercial). They ofcourse are geniuses.

zandorg 18y ago
Or just get a good manager.

wallflower 18y ago

Two quotable quotes: "Work does not necessarily make you happy, but it may provide you the money to do the things that make you happy." "If all you get from your job is a paycheck, you're underpaid" I don't think it's a trade-off if you don't love your job. However, if you truly hate your job - why are you doing it? I was a workaholic for the longest time and I still am - I am re-applying my workaholic tendencies to outside-the-cube. Software development bankrolls ventures like learning Spanish and Salsa dancing.

jcromartie 18y ago

I think Hugh MacLeod's How To Be Creative gives this subject a better treatment. I haven't forgotten the very simple "Sex & Cash Theory." Creative people need two jobs: one is sexy, and one pays the bills.

MHollender 18y ago

"Doing what you love is as important as ever" Eh. Does the sticky sugar-candy new-age optimism pouring out of blogs like this disturb only me? It's pure bullshit. Work was NOT meant as something to love. Work was NOT mean to provide you means do things that make you happy. Take a good, hard look around at the world, dammit: work was meant to give you a chance to SURVIVE. Perhaps some people who have very well functioning minds - very optimisting, easily get enthusiastic, easily get to love people and/or things - may eventually learn to love their work, or work on something they love. But for most of us it's out of question. Work, therefore you hate it. Get over. Don't raise unreasonable expectations in people, please.

MicahWedemeyer 18y ago

There are plenty of careers that meld creativity and commercial gains, like being an architect or interior designer. Don't you think an architect takes pride in seeing one of their buildings standing against the skyline? Sure, you might not get rich making splatter paintings, but you can still be creative and make money at the same time. People will pay for things that are aesthetically pleasing.

bokonist 18y ago
Architects don't make much money. And within the field, there is strong inverse correlation between prestige of the job and the pay. Some of the most prestigious New York firms actually pay their employees less than minimum wage. And I'm not talking about interns - I'm talking full time employees with masters in architecture getting paid virtually nothing. On the flip side, if an architect does project management for construction, they get paid a lot more.

sfamiliar 18y ago

You have to also love making money. I love making money. By definition, it is impossible for me to become unhappy if I have to make money doing what I love. /obvious. I had a girlfriend like this: she was an excellent photographer, had a degree in fine arts with a photography specialty, but didn't want to make money doing it -- she didn't want it to become her job. This discrepancy made her miserable, not only because she generally didn't get to take pictures, and didn't get to make the money she could be making, but also because she wasn't using her degree. I went to school for CS, not because I love it (though I do at times) but because the market forecast was good, and I wanted to retire early. What I like about programming is the freedom to innovate, to solve problems. I get to solve problems, solve puzzles with my job. That's great. When I get done working, I'll write a book -- that'll be even better. I think it's enough to work doing something you like, to support what you love.

mhb 18y ago

First "grow the economy" and now "surface your ideas". Ugh.

fallentimes 18y ago
Classic Godin.

LostInTheWoods 18y ago

"That passion you have for art... perhaps making your painting commercial enough to sell will squeeze the joy out of it." Once you cross the line of doing something to pay the bills, instead of doing it for the joy of doing it, then it becomes work. And, work, ultimately sucks.

deleted 18y ago
[deleted]
kirse 18y ago
I was trying to figure out when a hobby I love turns into something I hate, and you just nailed it for me. Needed to pay bills = work. It also becomes work once you believe you have to turn your hobby into something that makes money (because everyone - especially this site - tells you to find your passion and then make money from it). Some pursuits are better left intrinsicly rewarding.

aditya 18y ago

This is another example of Seth's cookiecutter gurudom. I don't think it applies to startups at all, though. Also, stop rehashing the same old, 'If you commercialize your art, it stops being satisfying' BS. We knew that forever ago. I think in the connected universe it is easy to to do something you love on the side AND make money from it AND be happy doing it. Like that guy who makes $2k/yr because he sold some photos to iStockphoto 10 years ago. Not to bring ad hominem into this, but why has Seth become so un-original?

Hexstream 18y ago
"become"?

coglethorpe 18y ago

I have a feeling Seth Godin loves what he does for money.

redorb 18y ago

if you're going to make a living at it, it helps to find a niche where money flows as a regular consequence of the success of your idea as soon as you focus on your art and leave the money behind, you may just discover that this focus turns out to be the secret of actually breaking through and making money. thats the meat of the articles, overall good ideas..

fallentimes 18y ago

Yeah, but more than likely you can do something doing what you like.

bmelina 18y ago

In some fields doing what you love won't pay your bills. But haven't you noticed that usually people that do what they love they are really good at it? And you keep wondering how he/she does it? A lot of people choose to work in a field that maybe it doesn't suits them or maybe because they have to because of the trends, but be sure that one day they will end up miserable and with no time to do what they really love because time may have passed.

iigs 18y ago

I think there's some kind of implicit sentiment that the happiness from doing something you enjoy and getting paid are additive when you do something you enjoy. I'm not sure that's true. I love computers, UNIX/Linux, scalable architectures, yadda yadda yadda. I work in the field, and am reasonably well compensated, but I've always said "I'd keep doing computers even if I was the one paying." Doing something you're passionate about for someone else (whether your customer is a manager, or you're self employed and your customer is the one paying) isn't inherently pleasurable if the customer's goals aren't perfectly aligned with yours -- in fact it can be deeply saddening to know there's a better way to accomplish something, if only some business reality (cost, technical constraint) wasn't in the way. For me, the big win working in my favorite field is that the job is easy -- I have a great pool of contacts, I've spent over 80% of my entire life immersed in the problems and solutions of this field. That said, I'm pretty sure I'd enjoy computing a lot more again if I went back to bagging groceries -- 100% of the computing I'd do would be computing for pleasure, no more chores or building stuff for people that have needs that are different than mine.

laktek 18y ago

My thoughts on this : http://www.web2media.net/laktek/?p=90 http://www.web2media.net/laktek/?p=90

bbgm 18y ago

I mostly agree with most of the comments, especially since Seth oversimplifies, but he has a point. I know a couple of people who loved painting and graphic design, but lost all love for it when it became a career, so they switched to another career and started enjoying design again. It wasn't that they couldn't make money from design, but making it a career took the joy and creativity out of it. HN might just skewed towards those lucky few who are able to make money from things they love. Personally, if I am not doing something I love, it's not worth it.

jerf 18y ago

I think he misses the real problem. It is easier to be noticed. It is easier to get "picked up". However, it's easier for everyone, which means that the supply of niche content is radically increasing... and when supply increases, the price drops. In the end, the key is still to move from niche to large, and we've moved from "like winning the lottery" under the old system to... "like winning the lottery" under the new system, too. The barrier of entry is lower, but it's even more random behind the barrier.

pg 18y ago

In order to monetize your work, you'll probably corrupt it, taking out the magic in search of dollars. The great artists of the Renaissance were very highly paid. In fact they were probably the best paid craftsmen of the time. And they are hard to beat for magic.

qhoxie 18y ago
The better the artist, the more they are able to explore their ideas and abilities. It's not universal but it's as circumstantially true now as it was then.
crux_ 18y ago
Not to pee on your parade, the only one of that gaggle of technicians that was any good was Hieronymus Bosch! </flamewar>
- pg 18y ago
  I miss being on vacation and not having access to wifi...
  - crux_ 18y ago
    Take it in the spirit it was offered.... namely, that of post-debate talking headism. Something of a communicable disease, I fear. ;)
Alex3917 18y ago
It's very well documented that rewards diminish both intrinsic motivation and creativity, so this is mostly a moot point. But for the sake of argument: A) The psychological effect of working for a church/patron is probably not analogous to, say, trying to produce a blog post that makes the front page of Digg. To borrow from Herzberg's two-factor theory, their patronage was more of a hygiene factor than a motivation factor. B) You're only looking at the best pieces from the best artists. It's likely that the average artist was producing mostly shit in hopes of getting paid. In fact probably even the best artists were producing mostly shit in hopes of getting paid.

zandorg 18y ago

I'm a pop musician, and I put out a few records, but I found that once committed to vinyl (not necessarily with the medium of CD-R), I got bored with those songs and couldn't enjoy them anymore. Vinyl is the most long-lasting medium for music, so this act of your music going on permanent art is more satisfying than the music itself.

cousin_it 18y ago

I read it as: "Produce great content for free and let Google make money off it." Does Seth see the conflict of interest? Or is it the actual reason behind the post?

known 18y ago

Being successful is key and money is an addon.