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> This whole exercise in mass mediocrity cannot end soon enough. the point of developing "mass mediocrity" is to prepare the ground for the exceptions by havin

> This whole exercise in mass mediocrity cannot end soon enough. the point of developing "mass mediocrity" is to prepare the ground for the exceptions by having a strong education system to support them. Equal access to education is important for locating and helping the exceptional

club_tropical 4y ago
1) That's not at all the point. If it was, NAEP and its ilk would be measuring the exceptions, which they are not. It is not even mentioned, let alone measured. 2) Also, "equal access to education" does not mean sticking kids in classrooms and instructing them according to a pre-set plan and pace. Education has never been more equally accessible, mostly thanks to the internet. What you're talking about is "equal access to a human instructor who acts as a cattleprod to force you to learn math" by gatekeeping diplomas, complaining to the parents, or generally using/abusing the obedient nature of kids in the presence of adults. Nobody exceptional has come from external force like that. Exceptions are exceptional due to intrinsic motivation, which Khan Academy et al is plenty enough to help discover. 3) There is enormous iatrogenic harm in education against the exceptional. They are forced to share classrooms with students uninterested in math, they can rarely find their peers, they are at the whim of ever dwindling gifted/accelerating programs, often artificially slowed down and bored to death, their time wasted and their spirit broken.
- beowulfey 4y ago
  So I take it you would rather we did away with public education? What exactly are you arguing for here?
  - club_tropical 4y ago
    I am arguing for a different telos of education: maximize the number of Mozarts and its equivalents in every field. Not a system that maximizes the average score of the nation's Jingle Bells performance over time. I care singularly about the Mozarts. Identification of talent, airlifting the proto-Mozarts out of Jingle Bells classrooms, putting them in company of their peers and under the tutelage of the best pianists alive. Sink or swim, let the eagle soar or faceplant. If they soar, we get Mozarts. If they faceplant, they can always go back to practicing Jingle Bells. As to what you do with the mediocre masses - I personally think it's cruel and inhumane to force them into Jingle Bells practice for years on end if they hate it, but ultimately I only care about rescuing Mozarts from being swallowed and stifled by mediocrity, not the suffering masses. Too much money, careers, egos tied up in torturing the masses with Jingle Bells lessons and Jingle bells diplomas and overruling that is not my concern.
    - beowulfey 4y ago
      How do you identify talent?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - selimthegrim 4y ago
      Exactly who do you think was running all this covid testing and DNA sequencing for strain typing - Mozarts or Jingle Bells? How should Jingle Bells understand math behind test pooling so they can correct errors, etc? You are advocating Soviet military approach which is failing spectacularly in Ukraine at the moment
    - zozbot234 4y ago
      > Sink or swim, let the eagle soar or faceplant. This is not how high-achievers are taught/educated. They do strive for mastery and continuous improvement, but not in a "sink or swim" way. The difference is that effective tutoring requires individualized attention. Effective mass instruction is driven by completely different dynamics, but these are not really "sink or swim" either, more about very direct, continued reinforcement of somewhat basic "lessons" that are to be effectively committed to memory, more or less verbatim. (Think of the way "memes" spread and advertisement campaigns are run; mass education that's truly optimized for raw effectiveness is not very different from that.)

club_tropical 4y ago

1) That's not at all the point. If it was, NAEP and its ilk would be measuring the exceptions, which they are not. It is not even mentioned, let alone measured. 2) Also, "equal access to education" does not mean sticking kids in classrooms and instructing them according to a pre-set plan and pace. Education has never been more equally accessible, mostly thanks to the internet. What you're talking about is "equal access to a human instructor who acts as a cattleprod to force you to learn math" by gatekeeping diplomas, complaining to the parents, or generally using/abusing the obedient nature of kids in the presence of adults. Nobody exceptional has come from external force like that. Exceptions are exceptional due to intrinsic motivation, which Khan Academy et al is plenty enough to help discover. 3) There is enormous iatrogenic harm in education against the exceptional. They are forced to share classrooms with students uninterested in math, they can rarely find their peers, they are at the whim of ever dwindling gifted/accelerating programs, often artificially slowed down and bored to death, their time wasted and their spirit broken.

beowulfey 4y ago
So I take it you would rather we did away with public education? What exactly are you arguing for here?
- club_tropical 4y ago
  I am arguing for a different telos of education: maximize the number of Mozarts and its equivalents in every field. Not a system that maximizes the average score of the nation's Jingle Bells performance over time. I care singularly about the Mozarts. Identification of talent, airlifting the proto-Mozarts out of Jingle Bells classrooms, putting them in company of their peers and under the tutelage of the best pianists alive. Sink or swim, let the eagle soar or faceplant. If they soar, we get Mozarts. If they faceplant, they can always go back to practicing Jingle Bells. As to what you do with the mediocre masses - I personally think it's cruel and inhumane to force them into Jingle Bells practice for years on end if they hate it, but ultimately I only care about rescuing Mozarts from being swallowed and stifled by mediocrity, not the suffering masses. Too much money, careers, egos tied up in torturing the masses with Jingle Bells lessons and Jingle bells diplomas and overruling that is not my concern.
  - beowulfey 4y ago
    How do you identify talent?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - selimthegrim 4y ago
    Exactly who do you think was running all this covid testing and DNA sequencing for strain typing - Mozarts or Jingle Bells? How should Jingle Bells understand math behind test pooling so they can correct errors, etc? You are advocating Soviet military approach which is failing spectacularly in Ukraine at the moment
  - zozbot234 4y ago
    > Sink or swim, let the eagle soar or faceplant. This is not how high-achievers are taught/educated. They do strive for mastery and continuous improvement, but not in a "sink or swim" way. The difference is that effective tutoring requires individualized attention. Effective mass instruction is driven by completely different dynamics, but these are not really "sink or swim" either, more about very direct, continued reinforcement of somewhat basic "lessons" that are to be effectively committed to memory, more or less verbatim. (Think of the way "memes" spread and advertisement campaigns are run; mass education that's truly optimized for raw effectiveness is not very different from that.)