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Very sorry to hear about your father's illness, and how the situation was made even the worse by such brazen disrespect for user experience. My parents also hav

Very sorry to hear about your father's illness, and how the situation was made even the worse by such brazen disrespect for user experience. My parents also have to regularly go through what I think amounts to violence by their electronic devices, but nothing as horrifying as this.

ehecatl42 4y ago
This terrifies me, TBH. I'm almost 50 and a little bit technical (used to admin Solaris boxen), and I just know the day will come when I haven't a damned clue how any of this works any more. For the time being, I'm happy using Linux as a bootloader for Emacs; will that be enough to see me through to my personal end? I sadly doubt it.
- calvinmorrison 4y ago
  Already happened to me, I have less and less idea how my linux system works now. I haven't kept up with all the various systemd rewrites, buses and random shit I don't know about and it's annoying when I actually want to do something has journalctl -xe ever dumped any useful information for anyone ever or am I just an idiot? when I restart nginx I want to know if it failed, why , what's the syntax error. instead old reliable /etc/init.d/nginx configtest no I have to dig around
  - ylyn 4y ago
    Then use a distro that doesn't use systemd.
    - calvinmorrison 4y ago
      Right, then I have to relearn my userspace setup... well maybe it's time - but I've been on debian longer long before I met my childs mother, before I even grew a single hair on my chest, before I had a bank account, a job, or a cell phone. But perhaps you are right, it's time to quit it
      - UncleSlacky 4y ago
        MX Linux (Debian-based, uses sysvinit with systemd shims) and Devuan would seem to be obvious alternatives that wouldn't require changes to your setup.
        calvinmorrison 4y ago
        I'll check it out. I have all sorts of weirdness with this system. snap is great because debian doesn't package a lot, yet then all my snap programs are sandboxed in a non useful way. (like mysqlworkbench won't save passwords in a keystore because that hookup doesn't work - and it cant run without a working keystore. like firefox will start once, but if you run the firefox command, it'll error out that firefox is already) lots of annoying little things
      - b112 4y ago
        Debian runs without systemd fine, at least for me. Try trinity as a desktop with sysvinit.
        calvinmorrison 4y ago
        I am a big fan of trinity! I have it for the unbeatable KDE 3 konqueror and a few other choice apps.
        b112 4y ago
        Yes, a well run / nice project. KDE3 seems far better than anything in the KDE or Gnome world since. (I don't use kwin, but instead a different window manager, and only part of trinity for this and that, but that's not due to a lack of quality, I just prefer to mix and match.)
  - AndroidKitKat 4y ago
    If a process or service is using systemd to start and stop it (e.g. You start it with `systemctl start $SERVICE_NAME), I often do `systemctl status $SERVICE_NAME` to get the service-specific logs. For me, it seems to get the job done much better than journalctl.
  - vel0city 4y ago
    > has journalctl -xe ever dumped any useful information for anyone ever It can be useful when there's potentially multiple things leading up to the error in whatever you're running, as it is showing and explaining nearly every action that's recently happened in the system log. But if you're just wanting to look at logs related to nginx starting at the most recent then just query for niginx's system log instead of the whole system. sudo journalctl --pager-end --unit nginx or: sudo journalctl -e -u nginx or: sudo journalctl -eu nginx
  - topaz0 4y ago
    If you can set up nginx to do what you want, you can learn how to use systemd. In my experience it is quite usable once you get a handle on it. I'm sure there are plenty of "getting started" kinds of introductions that could make it useful to you after maybe half an hour of time investment. Other commenters have answered your specific question.
  - dharmab 4y ago
    Here's an excerpt from my cheat sheet: # Output all logs since boot journalctl # Follow all logs in real time journalctl -f # Output logs for a given systemd unit journalctl -u $unit # Combine follow and unit flags to follow logs for a given systemd unit # Easy to remember: You are saying F*** U to a broken piece of software journalctl -fu $unit # Output kernel logs journalctl -k # Follow kernel logs journalctl -fk # Tip: Use -b flag to see logs from previous boot cycles # Learn more, including advanced filtering and formatting man journalctl You can also add that configtest command as an ExecStartPre to the unit, and it will run that before starting nginx and optionally fail early if it finds an error.
    - __turbobrew__ 4y ago
      You forgot: # Easy to remember: You are saying F**K because your kernel is broken journalctl -fk
    - Rediscover 4y ago
      Thank You
  - 5e92cb50239222b 4y ago
    systemd is aliased to /usr/sbin/service, so old sysvinit commands still work: $ service nginx status which should cover your if it failed, why , what's the syntax error For anything more complicated, refer to these cheatsheets: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Systemd#Using_units https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Systemd#Using_units https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Systemd/Journal#Filtering_output https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Systemd/Journal#Filtering_o... YMMV. I find systemd a lot easier to work with (I actually started wrapping daemons in proper services instead of sticking everything into nohup or tmux sessions).
- pc86 4y ago
  > and I just know the day will come when I haven't a damned clue how any of this works any more I don't think this is a foregone conclusion, and it's easy to say this and sort of throw your hands up and go "oh well, woe is me" but it's kind of a cop out, no? I have family in their 90's who can navigate whatever tech you put in front of them, because they think it's important to figure things out when they get stuck. My father can barely turn his phone on because at the slightest frustration he gives up and waits for someone to "fix it" for him. Certainly different folks have different aptitudes, but choice and working through things plays an exceedingly large role.
  - asciimov 4y ago
    > I don't think this is a foregone conclusion, and it's easy to say this and sort of throw your hands up and go "oh well, woe is me" but it's kind of a cop out, no? The problem is that as we get older, we tend to value our time differently. Learning a new interface just isn't as important to us as spending that time doing something enjoyable. Imagine if car companies randomly update the way you drive a car overnight every 7 or 8 years. You go out one day, and suddenly instead of a steering wheel and pedals you have a stick with paddles, then a few years later its changed to something that looks like an oar. Eventually you too might say to hell with it.
    - pc86 4y ago
      > The problem is that as we get older, we tend to value our time differently. > Eventually you too might say to hell with it I agree 100% and that's even kind of my point. You're choosing not to care about that stuff, which is fine (honestly, probably even healthy at a certain point), but it's not as if there is some biological imperative that as you age you are less able to use technology.
      - tmnvix 4y ago
        > You're choosing not to care about that stuff, which is fine I think the problem is that this is only fine in a world where we aren't forced to rely on these things.
- RalfWausE 4y ago
  A coworker of me never switched from DOS to Windows (he told me he tried it a few times but... meh), recently i helped him getting his new(-ish) Lenovo workstation set up with FreeDOS 1.3. So... it IS possible to stay on a system where you are comfortable with, if you are willing to make concessions...
  - Paianni 4y ago
    Wow, talk about living in the 90s...
  - awiesenhofer 4y ago
    Wow, what does he use it for? Any specific apps you know about?
    - RalfWausE 4y ago
      He mostly uses it for embedded programming, but also does the finances for a club he is in via a spreadsheet (As-easy-as) and does write the occasional letter in (if i remember correctly) wordstart. For emails and web he uses Arachne (with a hack that allows arachne to fetch https via wget).
- bmitc 4y ago
  I am an active engineer and software developer, and I already feel like I don’t have a clue how any of it works already. I am being a little bit hyperbolic of course, but that’s the feeling. And to be honest, I don’t think it’s me. It isn’t clear to me that the people who make all this stuff know how it works either. Nothing works as intended in technology. At least some form of technology doesn’t work as it should every day, from your work machine’s OS, or some program, or your smartphone, or Android Auto or Apple Car Play, or your TV, or your Internet provider or WiFi router, or that website you visit, or your smart thermostat, and on and on. And that’s stuff just plain not working or encountering bugs. It doesn’t even address the usability of all this. We are just shitting out technology left and right, all at the alter of scale. In my opinion, capitalism is part of the problem. The other is human nature. There are no incentives to get this right. And these days, large companies do not care that they get it right. Statistics of failure and user frustration are explicitly part of their business models. They don’t want to even know if there’s an issue with their product. They just let some statistics drive their decision making. It’s all just a tragedy and comedy all in one. Amazon has their 12 principles they hire with that makes it seem like they hire geniuses left and right. And they can’t even get book selling right these days. And there’s no way to report issues. They do not care.
  - codalan 4y ago
    It is difficult to get a person to understand something, when his/her bonus depends on not understanding it. Most of these bonuses are probably tied with frivolous, often highly unpopular and unwanted, feature updates. I doubt people get bonuses (or as large bonuses) for fixing usability bugs or improving quality.
- eointierney 4y ago
  In your case assuredly so, for you uttered the magical invocation "emacs" which will be supported 'til the heat death of the Universe :)
  - jkepler 4y ago
    And probably if one can still program lisp, one could write an escape vehicle for an alternate universe...

ehecatl42 4y ago

This terrifies me, TBH. I'm almost 50 and a little bit technical (used to admin Solaris boxen), and I just know the day will come when I haven't a damned clue how any of this works any more. For the time being, I'm happy using Linux as a bootloader for Emacs; will that be enough to see me through to my personal end? I sadly doubt it.

calvinmorrison 4y ago
Already happened to me, I have less and less idea how my linux system works now. I haven't kept up with all the various systemd rewrites, buses and random shit I don't know about and it's annoying when I actually want to do something has journalctl -xe ever dumped any useful information for anyone ever or am I just an idiot? when I restart nginx I want to know if it failed, why , what's the syntax error. instead old reliable /etc/init.d/nginx configtest no I have to dig around
- ylyn 4y ago
  Then use a distro that doesn't use systemd.
  - calvinmorrison 4y ago
    Right, then I have to relearn my userspace setup... well maybe it's time - but I've been on debian longer long before I met my childs mother, before I even grew a single hair on my chest, before I had a bank account, a job, or a cell phone. But perhaps you are right, it's time to quit it
    - UncleSlacky 4y ago
      MX Linux (Debian-based, uses sysvinit with systemd shims) and Devuan would seem to be obvious alternatives that wouldn't require changes to your setup.
      - calvinmorrison 4y ago
        I'll check it out. I have all sorts of weirdness with this system. snap is great because debian doesn't package a lot, yet then all my snap programs are sandboxed in a non useful way. (like mysqlworkbench won't save passwords in a keystore because that hookup doesn't work - and it cant run without a working keystore. like firefox will start once, but if you run the firefox command, it'll error out that firefox is already) lots of annoying little things
    - b112 4y ago
      Debian runs without systemd fine, at least for me. Try trinity as a desktop with sysvinit.
      - calvinmorrison 4y ago
        I am a big fan of trinity! I have it for the unbeatable KDE 3 konqueror and a few other choice apps.
        b112 4y ago
        Yes, a well run / nice project. KDE3 seems far better than anything in the KDE or Gnome world since. (I don't use kwin, but instead a different window manager, and only part of trinity for this and that, but that's not due to a lack of quality, I just prefer to mix and match.)
- AndroidKitKat 4y ago
  If a process or service is using systemd to start and stop it (e.g. You start it with `systemctl start $SERVICE_NAME), I often do `systemctl status $SERVICE_NAME` to get the service-specific logs. For me, it seems to get the job done much better than journalctl.
- vel0city 4y ago
  > has journalctl -xe ever dumped any useful information for anyone ever It can be useful when there's potentially multiple things leading up to the error in whatever you're running, as it is showing and explaining nearly every action that's recently happened in the system log. But if you're just wanting to look at logs related to nginx starting at the most recent then just query for niginx's system log instead of the whole system. sudo journalctl --pager-end --unit nginx or: sudo journalctl -e -u nginx or: sudo journalctl -eu nginx
- topaz0 4y ago
  If you can set up nginx to do what you want, you can learn how to use systemd. In my experience it is quite usable once you get a handle on it. I'm sure there are plenty of "getting started" kinds of introductions that could make it useful to you after maybe half an hour of time investment. Other commenters have answered your specific question.
- dharmab 4y ago
  Here's an excerpt from my cheat sheet: # Output all logs since boot journalctl # Follow all logs in real time journalctl -f # Output logs for a given systemd unit journalctl -u $unit # Combine follow and unit flags to follow logs for a given systemd unit # Easy to remember: You are saying F*** U to a broken piece of software journalctl -fu $unit # Output kernel logs journalctl -k # Follow kernel logs journalctl -fk # Tip: Use -b flag to see logs from previous boot cycles # Learn more, including advanced filtering and formatting man journalctl You can also add that configtest command as an ExecStartPre to the unit, and it will run that before starting nginx and optionally fail early if it finds an error.
  - __turbobrew__ 4y ago
    You forgot: # Easy to remember: You are saying F**K because your kernel is broken journalctl -fk
  - Rediscover 4y ago
    Thank You
- 5e92cb50239222b 4y ago
  systemd is aliased to /usr/sbin/service, so old sysvinit commands still work: $ service nginx status which should cover your if it failed, why , what's the syntax error For anything more complicated, refer to these cheatsheets: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Systemd#Using_units https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Systemd#Using_units https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Systemd/Journal#Filtering_output https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Systemd/Journal#Filtering_o... YMMV. I find systemd a lot easier to work with (I actually started wrapping daemons in proper services instead of sticking everything into nohup or tmux sessions).
pc86 4y ago
> and I just know the day will come when I haven't a damned clue how any of this works any more I don't think this is a foregone conclusion, and it's easy to say this and sort of throw your hands up and go "oh well, woe is me" but it's kind of a cop out, no? I have family in their 90's who can navigate whatever tech you put in front of them, because they think it's important to figure things out when they get stuck. My father can barely turn his phone on because at the slightest frustration he gives up and waits for someone to "fix it" for him. Certainly different folks have different aptitudes, but choice and working through things plays an exceedingly large role.
- asciimov 4y ago
  > I don't think this is a foregone conclusion, and it's easy to say this and sort of throw your hands up and go "oh well, woe is me" but it's kind of a cop out, no? The problem is that as we get older, we tend to value our time differently. Learning a new interface just isn't as important to us as spending that time doing something enjoyable. Imagine if car companies randomly update the way you drive a car overnight every 7 or 8 years. You go out one day, and suddenly instead of a steering wheel and pedals you have a stick with paddles, then a few years later its changed to something that looks like an oar. Eventually you too might say to hell with it.
  - pc86 4y ago
    > The problem is that as we get older, we tend to value our time differently. > Eventually you too might say to hell with it I agree 100% and that's even kind of my point. You're choosing not to care about that stuff, which is fine (honestly, probably even healthy at a certain point), but it's not as if there is some biological imperative that as you age you are less able to use technology.
    - tmnvix 4y ago
      > You're choosing not to care about that stuff, which is fine I think the problem is that this is only fine in a world where we aren't forced to rely on these things.
RalfWausE 4y ago
A coworker of me never switched from DOS to Windows (he told me he tried it a few times but... meh), recently i helped him getting his new(-ish) Lenovo workstation set up with FreeDOS 1.3. So... it IS possible to stay on a system where you are comfortable with, if you are willing to make concessions...
- Paianni 4y ago
  Wow, talk about living in the 90s...
- awiesenhofer 4y ago
  Wow, what does he use it for? Any specific apps you know about?
  - RalfWausE 4y ago
    He mostly uses it for embedded programming, but also does the finances for a club he is in via a spreadsheet (As-easy-as) and does write the occasional letter in (if i remember correctly) wordstart. For emails and web he uses Arachne (with a hack that allows arachne to fetch https via wget).
bmitc 4y ago
I am an active engineer and software developer, and I already feel like I don’t have a clue how any of it works already. I am being a little bit hyperbolic of course, but that’s the feeling. And to be honest, I don’t think it’s me. It isn’t clear to me that the people who make all this stuff know how it works either. Nothing works as intended in technology. At least some form of technology doesn’t work as it should every day, from your work machine’s OS, or some program, or your smartphone, or Android Auto or Apple Car Play, or your TV, or your Internet provider or WiFi router, or that website you visit, or your smart thermostat, and on and on. And that’s stuff just plain not working or encountering bugs. It doesn’t even address the usability of all this. We are just shitting out technology left and right, all at the alter of scale. In my opinion, capitalism is part of the problem. The other is human nature. There are no incentives to get this right. And these days, large companies do not care that they get it right. Statistics of failure and user frustration are explicitly part of their business models. They don’t want to even know if there’s an issue with their product. They just let some statistics drive their decision making. It’s all just a tragedy and comedy all in one. Amazon has their 12 principles they hire with that makes it seem like they hire geniuses left and right. And they can’t even get book selling right these days. And there’s no way to report issues. They do not care.
- codalan 4y ago
  It is difficult to get a person to understand something, when his/her bonus depends on not understanding it. Most of these bonuses are probably tied with frivolous, often highly unpopular and unwanted, feature updates. I doubt people get bonuses (or as large bonuses) for fixing usability bugs or improving quality.
eointierney 4y ago
In your case assuredly so, for you uttered the magical invocation "emacs" which will be supported 'til the heat death of the Universe :)
- jkepler 4y ago
  And probably if one can still program lisp, one could write an escape vehicle for an alternate universe...