7 ms·

The market fails in almost every respect, and it's nothing new. We get sold crap clothes that discolor when it's perfectly known how to make them not to, crap f

The market fails in almost every respect, and it's nothing new. We get sold crap clothes that discolor when it's perfectly known how to make them not to, crap food with all kinds of nasty ingredients like trans fats, etc. I don't know how people can still think that the market optimizing and giving us the products we want at an adequate price is the default, when it's clearly the exception.

badpun 4y ago
It is because most people don't actually care about those issues (discolored clothing, crap food ingredients etc.) to any measurable degree. They might in theory, but in practice they exert zero effort to educate themselves on these issues and learn how to discern better products from worse ones. And if the consumer doesn't care, why should companies care?
- Sponge5 4y ago
  I'd argue most consumers do care, but only after the fact.
  - kjkjadksj 4y ago
    Also being able to care and then act brings the assumption that you have the free time to spool up a mini research project on each and every consumer good you buy.
k0k0r0 4y ago
Yeah, it is like a mass psychosis.
MichaelZuo 4y ago
It's easy to hide lower quality but very difficult to hide higher prices. Game theory suggests that the vast majority of consumer goods will be nearly free, relative to their high quality counterparts, at the minimum viable quality.
lotsofpulp 4y ago
> We get sold crap clothes that discolor when it's perfectly known how to make them not to, I cannot remember the last time my clothes discolored, and I buy what I think are cheap clothes by US standard (Uniqlo/Next/Express/Macys/ASICS/Adidas). But to address your point, I would rather pay $30 for a pair of jeans that maybe has a little discoloration in 5 years, which I currently do, than $100+ for a high quality pair of jeans that might last 20 years but I have to pamper and take care of. Where the clothing market does not work is addressing the externality of plastics pollution, since it’s all short term benefit to individuals now at long term cost to society later. >crap food with all kinds of nasty ingredients like trans fats, etc. Trans fat is really minimal to non existent in most developed countries. But is a good example of when regulators need to intervene to protect the public.
- Al-Khwarizmi 4y ago
  I'm not even talking about the color fading in 5 years, I'm talking about clothes that shed pigment from the first wash and not only discolor, but ruin the rest of your laundry... If you don't experience it often, I imagine it might be a Europe vs. US thing. I have often heard that clothes for sale in the US tend to be more robustly made (maybe because of the widespread use of tumble dryers?). In Spain what I said above is definitely a common occurrence, and you don't even get rid of that by paying for good brands, I have had clothes from e.g. Lacoste do that. And the reason is that they skimp on a chemical that fixes the dye. It's perfectly avoidable, but they just don't bother.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    Interesting, I cannot relate to that. > I have often heard that clothes for sale in the US tend to be more robustly made (maybe because of the widespread use of tumble dryers?). Maybe, although the Next brand I wear a lot gets shipped to me from UK. I throw my unsorted clothes in the washer and then the dryer and then fold them and put them away. My British family spends a lot more time sorting by color, turning jeans inside out, washing them on specific water cycles, then line drying them, then ironing them. I figured I was just buying clothes that need less work.
  - 4y ago
donatj 4y ago
Counter argument, the market is getting exactly what they want. It’s just not aligned with what you want them to want. They want fast fashion that lasts a couple weeks, because that’s how long fashion trends last, and they want foods that taste good over is healthy. The market is just giving them what they want. And hear me out, if people are going to be throwing clothes out every couple weeks regardless of quality, it's better that they're made as cheaply as possible.
- Al-Khwarizmi 4y ago
  It's true that the market gives people what they "want", in the sense that they choose to buy that. That's almost a tautology. But most of the time they choose to buy that because they don't have enough information, or they have misleading information. No one wants a pair of pants to ruin the rest of the laundry. And there is food without trans fats that tastes as well if not better, but it's easier to just put trans fats or whatever the next crap product is and not inform the consumer.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    In case you are not aware of this concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernormal_stimulus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernormal_stimulus Pretty much all consumers know excess sugar, carbs, oil, salt, and calories in general are bad for them. Yet they still want to consume them. I went to a party last night where there were several obese healthcare professionals (doctor level). Yet they ate pizza, and one even put ranch dressing on it. The market is selling plenty of healthy food. People do not want it though, for the same reason a dog or other pet will engorge themselves if they were offered unhealthy amounts of easy calories.
- yakubin 4y ago
  Taste is learnt. Some people consider junk food to taste good only because they’ve been conditioned to eat it when they were growing up. If junk food was not a regular thing in your life, I doubt you’d consider it particularly tasty. Due to health issues when I was a child I couldn’t eat a lot of things at all growing up which for others were just not that healthy. I always ate at home. As a result I don’t consider junk food particularly tasty. Quite the opposite, home-cooked meals made out of raw ingredients are the most delicious thing I can think of. I also have a group of friends a bit older than me who grew up before McDonalds and KFC entered my country. For them too stuff sold by those places isn’t particularly pleasurable to eat. On the other hand I saw plenty of families who these days go to McDonalds every Saturday/Sunday, where the children are conditioned to expect regular visits to those places and will make a huge drama if it doesn’t happen. If you’re in US, from what I’ve heard even normal food in supermarkets is already more processed and the fresh stuff may somehow even be more expensive, so that’s a whole other can of worms.
krolden 4y ago
Dont forget about all those shitty clothes that dont get sold at Walmart/kohls/Costco/etc end up being dumped in a Chilean desert https://www.insider.com/discarded-fast-fashion-clothes-chile-desert-2021-11 https://www.insider.com/discarded-fast-fashion-clothes-chile... Efficiency!

badpun 4y ago

It is because most people don't actually care about those issues (discolored clothing, crap food ingredients etc.) to any measurable degree. They might in theory, but in practice they exert zero effort to educate themselves on these issues and learn how to discern better products from worse ones. And if the consumer doesn't care, why should companies care?

Sponge5 4y ago
I'd argue most consumers do care, but only after the fact.
- kjkjadksj 4y ago
  Also being able to care and then act brings the assumption that you have the free time to spool up a mini research project on each and every consumer good you buy.

k0k0r0 4y ago

Yeah, it is like a mass psychosis.

MichaelZuo 4y ago

It's easy to hide lower quality but very difficult to hide higher prices. Game theory suggests that the vast majority of consumer goods will be nearly free, relative to their high quality counterparts, at the minimum viable quality.

lotsofpulp 4y ago

> We get sold crap clothes that discolor when it's perfectly known how to make them not to, I cannot remember the last time my clothes discolored, and I buy what I think are cheap clothes by US standard (Uniqlo/Next/Express/Macys/ASICS/Adidas). But to address your point, I would rather pay $30 for a pair of jeans that maybe has a little discoloration in 5 years, which I currently do, than $100+ for a high quality pair of jeans that might last 20 years but I have to pamper and take care of. Where the clothing market does not work is addressing the externality of plastics pollution, since it’s all short term benefit to individuals now at long term cost to society later. >crap food with all kinds of nasty ingredients like trans fats, etc. Trans fat is really minimal to non existent in most developed countries. But is a good example of when regulators need to intervene to protect the public.

Al-Khwarizmi 4y ago
I'm not even talking about the color fading in 5 years, I'm talking about clothes that shed pigment from the first wash and not only discolor, but ruin the rest of your laundry... If you don't experience it often, I imagine it might be a Europe vs. US thing. I have often heard that clothes for sale in the US tend to be more robustly made (maybe because of the widespread use of tumble dryers?). In Spain what I said above is definitely a common occurrence, and you don't even get rid of that by paying for good brands, I have had clothes from e.g. Lacoste do that. And the reason is that they skimp on a chemical that fixes the dye. It's perfectly avoidable, but they just don't bother.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  Interesting, I cannot relate to that. > I have often heard that clothes for sale in the US tend to be more robustly made (maybe because of the widespread use of tumble dryers?). Maybe, although the Next brand I wear a lot gets shipped to me from UK. I throw my unsorted clothes in the washer and then the dryer and then fold them and put them away. My British family spends a lot more time sorting by color, turning jeans inside out, washing them on specific water cycles, then line drying them, then ironing them. I figured I was just buying clothes that need less work.
- 4y ago

donatj 4y ago

Counter argument, the market is getting exactly what they want. It’s just not aligned with what you want them to want. They want fast fashion that lasts a couple weeks, because that’s how long fashion trends last, and they want foods that taste good over is healthy. The market is just giving them what they want. And hear me out, if people are going to be throwing clothes out every couple weeks regardless of quality, it's better that they're made as cheaply as possible.

Al-Khwarizmi 4y ago
It's true that the market gives people what they "want", in the sense that they choose to buy that. That's almost a tautology. But most of the time they choose to buy that because they don't have enough information, or they have misleading information. No one wants a pair of pants to ruin the rest of the laundry. And there is food without trans fats that tastes as well if not better, but it's easier to just put trans fats or whatever the next crap product is and not inform the consumer.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  In case you are not aware of this concept: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernormal_stimulus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernormal_stimulus Pretty much all consumers know excess sugar, carbs, oil, salt, and calories in general are bad for them. Yet they still want to consume them. I went to a party last night where there were several obese healthcare professionals (doctor level). Yet they ate pizza, and one even put ranch dressing on it. The market is selling plenty of healthy food. People do not want it though, for the same reason a dog or other pet will engorge themselves if they were offered unhealthy amounts of easy calories.
yakubin 4y ago
Taste is learnt. Some people consider junk food to taste good only because they’ve been conditioned to eat it when they were growing up. If junk food was not a regular thing in your life, I doubt you’d consider it particularly tasty. Due to health issues when I was a child I couldn’t eat a lot of things at all growing up which for others were just not that healthy. I always ate at home. As a result I don’t consider junk food particularly tasty. Quite the opposite, home-cooked meals made out of raw ingredients are the most delicious thing I can think of. I also have a group of friends a bit older than me who grew up before McDonalds and KFC entered my country. For them too stuff sold by those places isn’t particularly pleasurable to eat. On the other hand I saw plenty of families who these days go to McDonalds every Saturday/Sunday, where the children are conditioned to expect regular visits to those places and will make a huge drama if it doesn’t happen. If you’re in US, from what I’ve heard even normal food in supermarkets is already more processed and the fresh stuff may somehow even be more expensive, so that’s a whole other can of worms.

krolden 4y ago

Dont forget about all those shitty clothes that dont get sold at Walmart/kohls/Costco/etc end up being dumped in a Chilean desert https://www.insider.com/discarded-fast-fashion-clothes-chile-desert-2021-11 https://www.insider.com/discarded-fast-fashion-clothes-chile... Efficiency!