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Actually eradicating bullying is impossible (if you think you did it, you're not looking close enough) so best to consider it a necessary evil - it's better to

Actually eradicating bullying is impossible (if you think you did it, you're not looking close enough) so best to consider it a necessary evil - it's better to experience it in a relatively controlled environment and learn to deal/defend yourself from it so that you are ready with adulthood. Bullying doesn't magically disappear in adulthood and not being prepared for it may make it significantly worse. Also, the problem with bullying isn't bullying itself but that people are receptive to it and don't defend themselves (partly because school rules prohibit defense). If everyone stands their ground and defends themselves, bullying will disappear. Bullying only makes sense when the reward (whether psychopathic self-satisfaction or bolstering your social status) is worth more than the risk (which is usually nothing if the target doesn't defend themselves). If bullying is guaranteed to result in a punch in the face, it will change the risk/reward calculation dramatically and make 99% of it not worth it.

rybosworld 4y ago
Being bullied definitely can teach some important life skills (dealing with conflict). You are absolutely correct that bullying is a theme in all stages of life, it just comes in many different forms. I think we discuss bullying in schools so much because children are more overt about it (e.g. stealing lunch money or what have you) and also more vulnerable. If you're a kid that does something really obnoxious/socially unacceptable, bullying is a way for peers to correct you. The kid that picks their nose will be made fun of and they'll grow up to be an adult that doesn't pick their nose. As with most things, bullying can go too far but that's not the norm.
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  Yep that's the other thing with bullying. Most people will experience some form of it, but in generally there's one category that's just light-hearted dumb jokes you can ignore (and are not even directed specifically at you - the person is being an asshole to everyone without a specific focus), and a second category that picks on a particular point - a point that's different enough about yourself that makes the bullying acceptable to the rest of your peers; in which case the best course of action is to correct that difference.
- trieste92 4y ago
  I used to read arguments like this and find sense in them, now they just make me sick It's possible to nudge proper behaviors without causing physical (or emotional) harm to a person. That kind of violence is never necessary, and the thinking that justifies it is hideous complacency at best
  - rybosworld 4y ago
    Firstly, I just don't think the old image of a bully who beats up a smaller kid is or ever was common. That sort of physical violence is wrong and should be prevented as much as possible. I feel that should go without saying but wanted to make it clear. These days, bullying has grown to an umbrella term that includes things like teasing. Teasing or making fun of a kid who does gross things is part of a natural reaction from the other kids. Sure you could nudge that kid to stop in a positive way but whose job is that? The other kids? Probably not. The teacher/parents? They have probably tried and failed. So what complacency are you describing? Do you think as a society we can stop kids from being mean to each other?
    - trieste92 4y ago
      There's a certain point where it goes from teasing to something else entirely There was a kid I went to high school with who was in a friend group I was also in. There was a point where we started calling him names just as a joke to mess with him. It got to a point where he became emotionally distant, but we kept doing it anyway just bc we didn't think much of it. His personality completely changed. He went from being a happy person to a shell of a person. We were his only friends at the time. He was still distant when we weren't around. He's (apparently) still like this also I still feel sick to my stomach about that situation to this day, but tl;dr there's a line at which teasing goes from just teasing to something horrible
    - matheusmoreira 4y ago
      Teasing is just probing for vulnerabilities with plausible deniability. They're testing you. They're determining your boundaries and testing your response to violations. Officially nothing is happening, they're "just messing with you" and so any reaction seems disproportionate. Such tests often escalate rapidly though until they discover some behavior they can't get away with.
matheusmoreira 4y ago
> Also, the problem with bullying isn't bullying itself but that people are receptive to it and don't defend themselves > If bullying is guaranteed to result in a punch in the face, it will change the risk/reward calculation dramatically and make 99% of it not worth it. This just isn't how violence happens. Bullies don't select targets they can't win against. In addition to that, they often come in groups. Victim managed to punch one guy? Not only is it likely that he'll overpower the victim, his buddies are there to make sure he doesn't lose. "Just defend yourself" is what leads to kids bringing weapons to school. Because that actually is how you defend yourself against violent thugs and certainly what a responsible adult would do when faced with unprovoked violence.
- oneoff786 4y ago
  No that’s also wrong. It doesn’t matter if you lose. If you present a credible threat of violence you’re unlikely to be attacked.
  - matheusmoreira 4y ago
    Emphasis on "credible". It's not really a credible threat if you lose the fight and suffer ten times worse whatever harm you inflicted. Getting stomped into the ground by a group of thugs you failed to take out will put you in the hospital if not the morgue. It's not really any different than literal gangs of criminals to be honest. The best way to deal with such violent people is to avoid them. You can't avoid bullies at school. If your plan is to defend yourself, then you better be able and willing to dish out extreme violence when warranted because that's what it's going to take. The ability and willingness to do that is the threat you speak of. Victims of bullying pretty much always have neither. Chances are the bullied kid isn't some hardened street tough capable of taking out three guys before they do the same to him. Even if these victims were that tough, they can't do that because schools don't really like it when kids create liability for them with violence like that so they impose harsh consequences to violence regardless of how warranted it is. So not only are victims weaker and outnumbered, schools will also punish them for defending themselves as is any human's right.
tomp 4y ago
> Bullying doesn't magically disappear in adulthood and not being prepared for it may make it significantly worse. What are you talking about? Were you ever actually bullied? The only place where violence is tolerated is school. Post high school, if anyone physically bullied me, I’d just call the police, the person could end in jail or at least their career would be gone. In school, you’re left to your own devices. Police don’t care, teachers can’t do anything because schooling is compulsory. > people are receptive to it and don't defend themselves Another delusional take. Why did she let him rape her, she should have just defended herself! Well, because I’m smaller, weaker, and there’s less of me (1 vs group of bullies). Taking it and hoping they leave is best option, not hitting back and provoking even more violence. I think it’s best if you don’t contribute to this discussion any more to avoid embarrassing yourself further.
- blackbear_ 4y ago
  There are many forms of bullying that only involve words, and not violence. For example: > I think it’s best if you don’t contribute to this discussion any more to avoid embarrassing yourself further.
  - tomp 4y ago
    Even verbal abuse (I refuse to say bullying or violence), despite being incomparable to actual violence (IMO it’s inconsiderate to even make that comparison!) is much easier to deal with in adulthood. You can literally just remove yourself from the situation! No such option for vast majority of school-age children (because schooling is compulsory).
    - trieste92 4y ago
      > You can literally just remove yourself from the situation! No, you really can't in many cases. And even then it isn't healthy to run every time someone crosses a boundary
      - _aavaa_ 4y ago
oneoff786 4y ago
My schools had very little bullying and basically none of the violent variety. I’m pretty sure any belief that bullying is good is some twisted status quo bias.
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  Very little bullying that you know of. Kids/teenagers will be kids and sometimes assholes. In general however, the system self-regulates well enough that it flies under the radar of authority, and indeed there wasn't any violence because it's against even the bullies' interests. And I'm not saying bullying is good, but it's virtually impossible to eradicate completely (if you think there is no bullying you just need to look closer), so short of getting rid of it, trying to at least get see the "good" parts of it in the form of a lesson on dealing with conflict is IMO the most pragmatic observation. This is even worse nowadays with social media where bullying "leaks" outside of school premises and can follow you around even across schools.
  - oneoff786 4y ago
    If we’re expanding the definition of bullying to include teasing and being mean, sure, that’s going to be a thing everywhere. But I’m very confident nobody in my school was getting beat up or robbed. If people had been, it likely would have been my social circle if nothing else. There was, in general, very little drama and people were free to be who they wanted to be.
Semaphor 4y ago
Eh, hard disagree. There was next to no bullying in my class after primary school (I was a chubby kid and the worst was that other kids sometimes made fun of me living in a street that translates to "fat mountain" or "bacon mountain"), in primary school there was one bully, but it turned out that getting the fat kid (me) angry enough to throw himself on you and not getting out under him, makes you a bit of a laughingstock. And bullying did not magically appear later in my life.
trieste92 4y ago
> Also, the problem with bullying isn't bullying itself but that people are receptive to it and don't defend themselves (partly because school rules prohibit defense). Agree. The worst things people do are to themselves. If you're trapped in an abusive situation, it'll fuck you up. But if you're receptive to that kind of abuse and stop seeing it as an inherent wrong, this is where people go from being abused to abusing themselves. This is the difference between someone getting bullied vs someone becoming an emotionally scarred shell of a person
RegnisGnaw 4y ago
Read the first sentence but replace bullying with "sexual assaults".

rybosworld 4y ago

Being bullied definitely can teach some important life skills (dealing with conflict). You are absolutely correct that bullying is a theme in all stages of life, it just comes in many different forms. I think we discuss bullying in schools so much because children are more overt about it (e.g. stealing lunch money or what have you) and also more vulnerable. If you're a kid that does something really obnoxious/socially unacceptable, bullying is a way for peers to correct you. The kid that picks their nose will be made fun of and they'll grow up to be an adult that doesn't pick their nose. As with most things, bullying can go too far but that's not the norm.

Nextgrid 4y ago
Yep that's the other thing with bullying. Most people will experience some form of it, but in generally there's one category that's just light-hearted dumb jokes you can ignore (and are not even directed specifically at you - the person is being an asshole to everyone without a specific focus), and a second category that picks on a particular point - a point that's different enough about yourself that makes the bullying acceptable to the rest of your peers; in which case the best course of action is to correct that difference.
trieste92 4y ago
I used to read arguments like this and find sense in them, now they just make me sick It's possible to nudge proper behaviors without causing physical (or emotional) harm to a person. That kind of violence is never necessary, and the thinking that justifies it is hideous complacency at best
- rybosworld 4y ago
  Firstly, I just don't think the old image of a bully who beats up a smaller kid is or ever was common. That sort of physical violence is wrong and should be prevented as much as possible. I feel that should go without saying but wanted to make it clear. These days, bullying has grown to an umbrella term that includes things like teasing. Teasing or making fun of a kid who does gross things is part of a natural reaction from the other kids. Sure you could nudge that kid to stop in a positive way but whose job is that? The other kids? Probably not. The teacher/parents? They have probably tried and failed. So what complacency are you describing? Do you think as a society we can stop kids from being mean to each other?
  - trieste92 4y ago
    There's a certain point where it goes from teasing to something else entirely There was a kid I went to high school with who was in a friend group I was also in. There was a point where we started calling him names just as a joke to mess with him. It got to a point where he became emotionally distant, but we kept doing it anyway just bc we didn't think much of it. His personality completely changed. He went from being a happy person to a shell of a person. We were his only friends at the time. He was still distant when we weren't around. He's (apparently) still like this also I still feel sick to my stomach about that situation to this day, but tl;dr there's a line at which teasing goes from just teasing to something horrible
  - matheusmoreira 4y ago
    Teasing is just probing for vulnerabilities with plausible deniability. They're testing you. They're determining your boundaries and testing your response to violations. Officially nothing is happening, they're "just messing with you" and so any reaction seems disproportionate. Such tests often escalate rapidly though until they discover some behavior they can't get away with.

matheusmoreira 4y ago

> Also, the problem with bullying isn't bullying itself but that people are receptive to it and don't defend themselves > If bullying is guaranteed to result in a punch in the face, it will change the risk/reward calculation dramatically and make 99% of it not worth it. This just isn't how violence happens. Bullies don't select targets they can't win against. In addition to that, they often come in groups. Victim managed to punch one guy? Not only is it likely that he'll overpower the victim, his buddies are there to make sure he doesn't lose. "Just defend yourself" is what leads to kids bringing weapons to school. Because that actually is how you defend yourself against violent thugs and certainly what a responsible adult would do when faced with unprovoked violence.

oneoff786 4y ago
No that’s also wrong. It doesn’t matter if you lose. If you present a credible threat of violence you’re unlikely to be attacked.
- matheusmoreira 4y ago
  Emphasis on "credible". It's not really a credible threat if you lose the fight and suffer ten times worse whatever harm you inflicted. Getting stomped into the ground by a group of thugs you failed to take out will put you in the hospital if not the morgue. It's not really any different than literal gangs of criminals to be honest. The best way to deal with such violent people is to avoid them. You can't avoid bullies at school. If your plan is to defend yourself, then you better be able and willing to dish out extreme violence when warranted because that's what it's going to take. The ability and willingness to do that is the threat you speak of. Victims of bullying pretty much always have neither. Chances are the bullied kid isn't some hardened street tough capable of taking out three guys before they do the same to him. Even if these victims were that tough, they can't do that because schools don't really like it when kids create liability for them with violence like that so they impose harsh consequences to violence regardless of how warranted it is. So not only are victims weaker and outnumbered, schools will also punish them for defending themselves as is any human's right.

tomp 4y ago

> Bullying doesn't magically disappear in adulthood and not being prepared for it may make it significantly worse. What are you talking about? Were you ever actually bullied? The only place where violence is tolerated is school. Post high school, if anyone physically bullied me, I’d just call the police, the person could end in jail or at least their career would be gone. In school, you’re left to your own devices. Police don’t care, teachers can’t do anything because schooling is compulsory. > people are receptive to it and don't defend themselves Another delusional take. Why did she let him rape her, she should have just defended herself! Well, because I’m smaller, weaker, and there’s less of me (1 vs group of bullies). Taking it and hoping they leave is best option, not hitting back and provoking even more violence. I think it’s best if you don’t contribute to this discussion any more to avoid embarrassing yourself further.

blackbear_ 4y ago
There are many forms of bullying that only involve words, and not violence. For example: > I think it’s best if you don’t contribute to this discussion any more to avoid embarrassing yourself further.
- tomp 4y ago
  Even verbal abuse (I refuse to say bullying or violence), despite being incomparable to actual violence (IMO it’s inconsiderate to even make that comparison!) is much easier to deal with in adulthood. You can literally just remove yourself from the situation! No such option for vast majority of school-age children (because schooling is compulsory).
  - trieste92 4y ago
    > You can literally just remove yourself from the situation! No, you really can't in many cases. And even then it isn't healthy to run every time someone crosses a boundary
    - _aavaa_ 4y ago

oneoff786 4y ago

My schools had very little bullying and basically none of the violent variety. I’m pretty sure any belief that bullying is good is some twisted status quo bias.

Nextgrid 4y ago
Very little bullying that you know of. Kids/teenagers will be kids and sometimes assholes. In general however, the system self-regulates well enough that it flies under the radar of authority, and indeed there wasn't any violence because it's against even the bullies' interests. And I'm not saying bullying is good, but it's virtually impossible to eradicate completely (if you think there is no bullying you just need to look closer), so short of getting rid of it, trying to at least get see the "good" parts of it in the form of a lesson on dealing with conflict is IMO the most pragmatic observation. This is even worse nowadays with social media where bullying "leaks" outside of school premises and can follow you around even across schools.
- oneoff786 4y ago
  If we’re expanding the definition of bullying to include teasing and being mean, sure, that’s going to be a thing everywhere. But I’m very confident nobody in my school was getting beat up or robbed. If people had been, it likely would have been my social circle if nothing else. There was, in general, very little drama and people were free to be who they wanted to be.

Semaphor 4y ago

Eh, hard disagree. There was next to no bullying in my class after primary school (I was a chubby kid and the worst was that other kids sometimes made fun of me living in a street that translates to "fat mountain" or "bacon mountain"), in primary school there was one bully, but it turned out that getting the fat kid (me) angry enough to throw himself on you and not getting out under him, makes you a bit of a laughingstock. And bullying did not magically appear later in my life.

trieste92 4y ago

> Also, the problem with bullying isn't bullying itself but that people are receptive to it and don't defend themselves (partly because school rules prohibit defense). Agree. The worst things people do are to themselves. If you're trapped in an abusive situation, it'll fuck you up. But if you're receptive to that kind of abuse and stop seeing it as an inherent wrong, this is where people go from being abused to abusing themselves. This is the difference between someone getting bullied vs someone becoming an emotionally scarred shell of a person

RegnisGnaw 4y ago

Read the first sentence but replace bullying with "sexual assaults".