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This whole exercise in mass mediocrity cannot end soon enough. We need to be measuring exceptions not averages. Just like an honest measure of public investment

This whole exercise in mass mediocrity cannot end soon enough. We need to be measuring exceptions not averages. Just like an honest measure of public investment in "piano education" would be the ability to produce Mozarts, not enormous masses of people who can play a tune 8% better after decades of investment.

satvikchoudhary 4y ago
I could agree if this was a study on college students, but this is on 4 and 8 grades students. Basic mathematics is somewhat important in my opinion.
- club_tropical 4y ago
  Is 13% increase in NAEP scores worth all the increased the public school math / STEM investment since 1990? And that's being charitable - believing that the increase is not due to mucking around with the "representative sample" or "accommodations" that have been granted. And why is classroom instruction important for basic maths anyways? People bought and sold goods, kept accounting books, had investment portfolios, mortgage-style debt instruments far before there was ever a "4th grade" education, much less a 4th grade NAEP score. The ones that need to learn such things will learn, far faster and better than in a decontextualized classroom. I highly doubt people got 13% wiser in managing money or whatever other pro-social thing this increased NAEP math average is supposed to be a proxy for. So, it doesn't produce more Galois' and Gauss' and it doesn't make people wiser with mathy things... literally what's the point. One should also mention the enormous costs - all the public expense diverted to this pointless endeavor, the stifling of the truly mathematically gifted in structured "lesson plans" fit for mass mediocrity, and torturing future truck drivers, dancers, janitors, and burger flippers for years with equations.
cr4nberry 4y ago
> This whole exercise in mass mediocrity cannot end soon enough. the point of developing "mass mediocrity" is to prepare the ground for the exceptions by having a strong education system to support them. Equal access to education is important for locating and helping the exceptional
- club_tropical 4y ago
  1) That's not at all the point. If it was, NAEP and its ilk would be measuring the exceptions, which they are not. It is not even mentioned, let alone measured. 2) Also, "equal access to education" does not mean sticking kids in classrooms and instructing them according to a pre-set plan and pace. Education has never been more equally accessible, mostly thanks to the internet. What you're talking about is "equal access to a human instructor who acts as a cattleprod to force you to learn math" by gatekeeping diplomas, complaining to the parents, or generally using/abusing the obedient nature of kids in the presence of adults. Nobody exceptional has come from external force like that. Exceptions are exceptional due to intrinsic motivation, which Khan Academy et al is plenty enough to help discover. 3) There is enormous iatrogenic harm in education against the exceptional. They are forced to share classrooms with students uninterested in math, they can rarely find their peers, they are at the whim of ever dwindling gifted/accelerating programs, often artificially slowed down and bored to death, their time wasted and their spirit broken.
  - beowulfey 4y ago
    So I take it you would rather we did away with public education? What exactly are you arguing for here?
    - club_tropical 4y ago
      I am arguing for a different telos of education: maximize the number of Mozarts and its equivalents in every field. Not a system that maximizes the average score of the nation's Jingle Bells performance over time. I care singularly about the Mozarts. Identification of talent, airlifting the proto-Mozarts out of Jingle Bells classrooms, putting them in company of their peers and under the tutelage of the best pianists alive. Sink or swim, let the eagle soar or faceplant. If they soar, we get Mozarts. If they faceplant, they can always go back to practicing Jingle Bells. As to what you do with the mediocre masses - I personally think it's cruel and inhumane to force them into Jingle Bells practice for years on end if they hate it, but ultimately I only care about rescuing Mozarts from being swallowed and stifled by mediocrity, not the suffering masses. Too much money, careers, egos tied up in torturing the masses with Jingle Bells lessons and Jingle bells diplomas and overruling that is not my concern.

satvikchoudhary 4y ago

I could agree if this was a study on college students, but this is on 4 and 8 grades students. Basic mathematics is somewhat important in my opinion.

club_tropical 4y ago
Is 13% increase in NAEP scores worth all the increased the public school math / STEM investment since 1990? And that's being charitable - believing that the increase is not due to mucking around with the "representative sample" or "accommodations" that have been granted. And why is classroom instruction important for basic maths anyways? People bought and sold goods, kept accounting books, had investment portfolios, mortgage-style debt instruments far before there was ever a "4th grade" education, much less a 4th grade NAEP score. The ones that need to learn such things will learn, far faster and better than in a decontextualized classroom. I highly doubt people got 13% wiser in managing money or whatever other pro-social thing this increased NAEP math average is supposed to be a proxy for. So, it doesn't produce more Galois' and Gauss' and it doesn't make people wiser with mathy things... literally what's the point. One should also mention the enormous costs - all the public expense diverted to this pointless endeavor, the stifling of the truly mathematically gifted in structured "lesson plans" fit for mass mediocrity, and torturing future truck drivers, dancers, janitors, and burger flippers for years with equations.

cr4nberry 4y ago

> This whole exercise in mass mediocrity cannot end soon enough. the point of developing "mass mediocrity" is to prepare the ground for the exceptions by having a strong education system to support them. Equal access to education is important for locating and helping the exceptional

club_tropical 4y ago
1) That's not at all the point. If it was, NAEP and its ilk would be measuring the exceptions, which they are not. It is not even mentioned, let alone measured. 2) Also, "equal access to education" does not mean sticking kids in classrooms and instructing them according to a pre-set plan and pace. Education has never been more equally accessible, mostly thanks to the internet. What you're talking about is "equal access to a human instructor who acts as a cattleprod to force you to learn math" by gatekeeping diplomas, complaining to the parents, or generally using/abusing the obedient nature of kids in the presence of adults. Nobody exceptional has come from external force like that. Exceptions are exceptional due to intrinsic motivation, which Khan Academy et al is plenty enough to help discover. 3) There is enormous iatrogenic harm in education against the exceptional. They are forced to share classrooms with students uninterested in math, they can rarely find their peers, they are at the whim of ever dwindling gifted/accelerating programs, often artificially slowed down and bored to death, their time wasted and their spirit broken.
- beowulfey 4y ago
  So I take it you would rather we did away with public education? What exactly are you arguing for here?
  - club_tropical 4y ago
    I am arguing for a different telos of education: maximize the number of Mozarts and its equivalents in every field. Not a system that maximizes the average score of the nation's Jingle Bells performance over time. I care singularly about the Mozarts. Identification of talent, airlifting the proto-Mozarts out of Jingle Bells classrooms, putting them in company of their peers and under the tutelage of the best pianists alive. Sink or swim, let the eagle soar or faceplant. If they soar, we get Mozarts. If they faceplant, they can always go back to practicing Jingle Bells. As to what you do with the mediocre masses - I personally think it's cruel and inhumane to force them into Jingle Bells practice for years on end if they hate it, but ultimately I only care about rescuing Mozarts from being swallowed and stifled by mediocrity, not the suffering masses. Too much money, careers, egos tied up in torturing the masses with Jingle Bells lessons and Jingle bells diplomas and overruling that is not my concern.