3 ms·

We have such an absence of '3rd space' areas, otherwise called 'community spaces' that literally the language seems to be missing, and we can nary fathom it int

by jasmer 4y ago

We have such an absence of '3rd space' areas, otherwise called 'community spaces' that literally the language seems to be missing, and we can nary fathom it into the analysis! I would have imagined that the entire discussion would have been about that. I'm originally from a small town where it's almost entirely a '3rd space' - even the homes. Sitting with my grandmother for lunch, literally random people would walk in to 'say hi' - or not really 'hi' but rather to talk/pass on something 'really important' such as the cousin of the shop keeper who passed on, and that's his family at the funeral parlour - because of course you ought to know. etc.. There is a great intellectual in personal freedom in being able to leave the community, at the same time, civil society has not created a replacement; frankly it's obvious and sad. Perhaps even more perverse are generations of people who have never known what was, and have no frame of reference for it. Our leaders don't give it a thought and many would be leaders who might otherwise speak for traditional communities either lack the communication skills, are caught up in other bad ideas, or are pushed aside as relics in favour of some ideological meme. I think this is a first order cultural issue, like healthcare and social assistance. I'm not sure we have even the language to address it, as usually the most academic individuals want to talk about the most progressive ideas and 'change' of some kind. Perhaps there is hope, in that often we just find a 'new way' to describe some otherwise traditional concept. 'Organic gardens' being a good example of that; in my hometown, many people have 'organic gardens' - because they've just always had 'gardens', and really never did use a chemicals, ergo, they were hip before it was hip. Perhaps the term '3rd Space' can substitute in a similar manner to describe what we've understood since the dawn of time in social terms, i.e. 'the community'.

firstSpeaker 4y ago
When I was a 10 or something we used to gather together and watch tv with neighbours kids, we used to borrow things from our neighbours! My mother and other kids mothers used to sit and have tea and chitchat and spend time together. It was to the point that we could go to our friends house anytime and maybe even sit and have lunch with them (no invitation or preparation was needed). Comparing that with today small town that I live it feels more like people are living in in isolation cells rather than a community.
- jasmer 4y ago
  Yes, 'Families' are a fairly foundational artifact of the '3rd space' concept. It's a bit of a sensitive social issue which relates to 'someone at home', obviously almost always the mother. I have no doubt whatsoever that women having the chance to work, contribute etc. is very material progress, at the same time, I have no doubt that 'homemakers' add tremendous value. The former we measure in terms of productivity, GDP etc. the later, again, it's 'externalized' from our data and language, and kind of 'shamed' a bit in some circles so we just don't talk about it. In 2022 I kind of just assume the world is fairly gender-less in most respects so I'm always shocked to see this kind of data which shows substantial numbers of women (relative to men) preferring to stay at home. It's still about 50% [1]. I've seen other, more nuanced data that puts it a bit more subtly: men mostly prefer to work full time (but definitely not all), women substantially prefer to work part time with almost equal cohorts wanting full time work vs. stay at home full time. I think the 'part time' concept rings interesting, because it may feel aspirational or 'best of both worlds' for at least some people (men included) who kind of want to spend time with young children, but not be 'locked in the home'. And finally, we are living a lot longer and so ratio of families with children is smaller, which affects the numbers. [1] https://news.gallup.com/poll/267737/record-high-women-prefer-working-homemaking.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/267737/record-high-women-prefer...
  - cloudier 4y ago
    > In 2022 I kind of just assume the world is fairly gender-less in most respects Given that women’s participation in the labor force in the US passed 50% in the 1970s (well within living memory!), this is pretty optimistic :)
  - 4gotunameagain 4y ago
    > In 2022 I kind of just assume the world is fairly gender-less in most respects so I'm always shocked to see this kind of data It is almost as if humans have gender/sex related predispositions and are not a tabula rasa for the society to scribe on, as the far left would like to claim.. I would suggest the Blueprint by Robert Plomin, a fascinating read.
- 4y ago
randomdata 4y ago
> We have such an absence of '3rd space' areas, otherwise called 'community spaces' From my perspective the spaces are numerous. It is people wanting to use them that is absent. Everywhere you go the question from those running them is the same: How can we attract more people here? The problem may actually be that we have too many third space areas, which has spread them all too thin. Nobody wants to go to a third space to sit alone.
- jasmer 4y ago
  '3rd space' is a conceptual 'space', not a physical space. It just means places shared by a local community wherein there are material social connections: aka 'Bowling Club', 'Ladies Auxiliary of the local veterans association', the 'Church', the 'greasy diner'. Notably a lot of restaurants/cafes used to be '3rd spaces' - but they've often been replaced with corporatized chains. Starbucks, funny enough effectively 'brands' their cafes as '3rd spaces' with the comfy chairs etc. but they are in reality, not really 3rd spaces. Just the 'feeling and appearance' of it. In my local suburban Starbucks there are little 'cheerful sticky notes' ostensibly written by community members, alas, they are not. They are mostly the same handwriting; the little bits of 'cheer' were handed down to the manager from corporate HQ, to be 'passed off as' community notes, so as to substitute for the sentiment of the local folks, who obviously can't be trusted to be 'on brand'. I find that a deeply cynical form of 'marketing'.
  - randomdata 4y ago
    > It just means places shared by a local community wherein there are material social connections: aka 'Bowling Club', 'Ladies Auxiliary of the local veterans association', the 'Church', the 'greasy diner'. Yes, that's what I'm talking about. Those groups are all trying to figure out how to attract people. Such groups are found all over the place, with a small group of people desperately trying to make something of them, but are all struggling to establish a community. The outcome I see over and over again is that the dedicated few end up taking the club/organization/group on as a job and plan one or two events each year that brings out the larger community. And it works for one night only, but then people go back to living their lives and the dedicated few get back to work to make it happen again next year. The problem is that these people don't really want a job. The hard work is just the only avenue they see to support their dream of building the community they want to exist in. But it's a struggle because there is so much competition for one's time. I posit that there are too many third spaces that have spread too thin and as they become thin it becomes less likely that anyone else wants to become a member of their community. Nobody wants to sit alone. If the bowling club, ladies auxiliary, church, etc. came together there would be a better chance of a community starting to build, but that would mean letting go of competing interests and in a world that has become accustomed to never ending choice that is a hard pill to swallow.

by jasmer 4y ago

firstSpeaker 4y ago

When I was a 10 or something we used to gather together and watch tv with neighbours kids, we used to borrow things from our neighbours! My mother and other kids mothers used to sit and have tea and chitchat and spend time together. It was to the point that we could go to our friends house anytime and maybe even sit and have lunch with them (no invitation or preparation was needed). Comparing that with today small town that I live it feels more like people are living in in isolation cells rather than a community.

jasmer 4y ago
Yes, 'Families' are a fairly foundational artifact of the '3rd space' concept. It's a bit of a sensitive social issue which relates to 'someone at home', obviously almost always the mother. I have no doubt whatsoever that women having the chance to work, contribute etc. is very material progress, at the same time, I have no doubt that 'homemakers' add tremendous value. The former we measure in terms of productivity, GDP etc. the later, again, it's 'externalized' from our data and language, and kind of 'shamed' a bit in some circles so we just don't talk about it. In 2022 I kind of just assume the world is fairly gender-less in most respects so I'm always shocked to see this kind of data which shows substantial numbers of women (relative to men) preferring to stay at home. It's still about 50% [1]. I've seen other, more nuanced data that puts it a bit more subtly: men mostly prefer to work full time (but definitely not all), women substantially prefer to work part time with almost equal cohorts wanting full time work vs. stay at home full time. I think the 'part time' concept rings interesting, because it may feel aspirational or 'best of both worlds' for at least some people (men included) who kind of want to spend time with young children, but not be 'locked in the home'. And finally, we are living a lot longer and so ratio of families with children is smaller, which affects the numbers. [1] https://news.gallup.com/poll/267737/record-high-women-prefer-working-homemaking.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/267737/record-high-women-prefer...
- cloudier 4y ago
  > In 2022 I kind of just assume the world is fairly gender-less in most respects Given that women’s participation in the labor force in the US passed 50% in the 1970s (well within living memory!), this is pretty optimistic :)
- 4gotunameagain 4y ago
  > In 2022 I kind of just assume the world is fairly gender-less in most respects so I'm always shocked to see this kind of data It is almost as if humans have gender/sex related predispositions and are not a tabula rasa for the society to scribe on, as the far left would like to claim.. I would suggest the Blueprint by Robert Plomin, a fascinating read.
4y ago

randomdata 4y ago

> We have such an absence of '3rd space' areas, otherwise called 'community spaces' From my perspective the spaces are numerous. It is people wanting to use them that is absent. Everywhere you go the question from those running them is the same: How can we attract more people here? The problem may actually be that we have too many third space areas, which has spread them all too thin. Nobody wants to go to a third space to sit alone.

jasmer 4y ago
'3rd space' is a conceptual 'space', not a physical space. It just means places shared by a local community wherein there are material social connections: aka 'Bowling Club', 'Ladies Auxiliary of the local veterans association', the 'Church', the 'greasy diner'. Notably a lot of restaurants/cafes used to be '3rd spaces' - but they've often been replaced with corporatized chains. Starbucks, funny enough effectively 'brands' their cafes as '3rd spaces' with the comfy chairs etc. but they are in reality, not really 3rd spaces. Just the 'feeling and appearance' of it. In my local suburban Starbucks there are little 'cheerful sticky notes' ostensibly written by community members, alas, they are not. They are mostly the same handwriting; the little bits of 'cheer' were handed down to the manager from corporate HQ, to be 'passed off as' community notes, so as to substitute for the sentiment of the local folks, who obviously can't be trusted to be 'on brand'. I find that a deeply cynical form of 'marketing'.
- randomdata 4y ago
  > It just means places shared by a local community wherein there are material social connections: aka 'Bowling Club', 'Ladies Auxiliary of the local veterans association', the 'Church', the 'greasy diner'. Yes, that's what I'm talking about. Those groups are all trying to figure out how to attract people. Such groups are found all over the place, with a small group of people desperately trying to make something of them, but are all struggling to establish a community. The outcome I see over and over again is that the dedicated few end up taking the club/organization/group on as a job and plan one or two events each year that brings out the larger community. And it works for one night only, but then people go back to living their lives and the dedicated few get back to work to make it happen again next year. The problem is that these people don't really want a job. The hard work is just the only avenue they see to support their dream of building the community they want to exist in. But it's a struggle because there is so much competition for one's time. I posit that there are too many third spaces that have spread too thin and as they become thin it becomes less likely that anyone else wants to become a member of their community. Nobody wants to sit alone. If the bowling club, ladies auxiliary, church, etc. came together there would be a better chance of a community starting to build, but that would mean letting go of competing interests and in a world that has become accustomed to never ending choice that is a hard pill to swallow.