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Please forgive me if I am wrong but JavaScript was not an "open standard" either in the beginning. It took you 1 year to submit it to the ECMA body for consider

by souichi 15y ago

Please forgive me if I am wrong but JavaScript was not an "open standard" either in the beginning. It took you 1 year to submit it to the ECMA body for consideration. And, oh boy, you are still fixing JS design mistakes with a group of quite smart engineers and computer scientists. Now lets step back and look into the past: was JavaScript implementation or specification as open to comments and feedback as Dart is now? There are public mailing lists, issue tracker and open repositories that accept patches and suggestions. Did you have that for JavaScript? I might be utterly wrong but I bet you did not. Yet instead of participating in the language effort or at least stepping back and patiently watching it's birth and growth into something standardizable you criticize and bash it. May I humbly ask you why?

BrendanEich 15y ago
You're new here, another 3-hour-old HN account. Do you by any chance work on Dart for Google? In any event, why don't you catch up and familiarize yourself with my arguments by reading my comments here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2998374 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2998374 and in the whole thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2982256 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2982256 --- begin quote --- ``Accusing me of hypocrisy shows ignorance of that word's definition in light of the history of my career. ``I'm not practicing one thing and preaching another. I worked on JS standardization less than a year after shipping it in Netscape 2 beta. After that I co-founded mozilla.org. I'm not currently doing A and preaching not-A, nor have I been doing "proprietary" work for a long time. I've paid my dues.'' --- end quote --- As for "criticize", my comment here asks what open standard someone else (not you) meant. I'd like to know. Let's hear the other person's answer, before criticizing anyone. I did not criticize a soul in my comment. As for "bash": stop lying. I did not bash a thing and you know it. The lamest form of non-argument is to whine about "bashing" and utterly fail to engage the substance of the other person's argument. You, however, are making an anonymous ad-hominem attack on me for not doing something Netscape simply would not support 16 years ago. I could have quit and let VBScript win. I'm not bragging about JS but (smart people on TC39 notwithstanding -- you needn't put me down by implying they're doing all the good-parts work :-/) JS has succeeded beyond many expectations. Good luck to Dart getting the same adoption. And JS won't go away quickly, so my position, independent of my past, is that we ought to improve it rather than starve it by trying to do a new language. Same as for HTML -- I co-founded the WHAT-WG to do HTML5 when the W3C abandoned HTML in 2004. Make no mistake: (1) Google is pulling people off of JS to do Dart; (2) Dart will not get foreseeable adoption in any browser of significant market share but Chrome. If Chrome had Netscape's market share, then Dart could probably become de-facto standard, as JS did back in 1996. Perhaps Chrome will get there, but it'll take a while, and in the mean time, Dart both costs JS (because Google has pulled people off of JS) and threatens to fragment the web (and WebKit first, the topic of this thread).

by souichi 15y ago

BrendanEich 15y ago

You're new here, another 3-hour-old HN account. Do you by any chance work on Dart for Google? In any event, why don't you catch up and familiarize yourself with my arguments by reading my comments here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2998374 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2998374 and in the whole thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2982256 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2982256 --- begin quote --- ``Accusing me of hypocrisy shows ignorance of that word's definition in light of the history of my career. ``I'm not practicing one thing and preaching another. I worked on JS standardization less than a year after shipping it in Netscape 2 beta. After that I co-founded mozilla.org. I'm not currently doing A and preaching not-A, nor have I been doing "proprietary" work for a long time. I've paid my dues.'' --- end quote --- As for "criticize", my comment here asks what open standard someone else (not you) meant. I'd like to know. Let's hear the other person's answer, before criticizing anyone. I did not criticize a soul in my comment. As for "bash": stop lying. I did not bash a thing and you know it. The lamest form of non-argument is to whine about "bashing" and utterly fail to engage the substance of the other person's argument. You, however, are making an anonymous ad-hominem attack on me for not doing something Netscape simply would not support 16 years ago. I could have quit and let VBScript win. I'm not bragging about JS but (smart people on TC39 notwithstanding -- you needn't put me down by implying they're doing all the good-parts work :-/) JS has succeeded beyond many expectations. Good luck to Dart getting the same adoption. And JS won't go away quickly, so my position, independent of my past, is that we ought to improve it rather than starve it by trying to do a new language. Same as for HTML -- I co-founded the WHAT-WG to do HTML5 when the W3C abandoned HTML in 2004. Make no mistake: (1) Google is pulling people off of JS to do Dart; (2) Dart will not get foreseeable adoption in any browser of significant market share but Chrome. If Chrome had Netscape's market share, then Dart could probably become de-facto standard, as JS did back in 1996. Perhaps Chrome will get there, but it'll take a while, and in the mean time, Dart both costs JS (because Google has pulled people off of JS) and threatens to fragment the web (and WebKit first, the topic of this thread).