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“It’s fine even if it’s fifth or seventh” - this is bad advice (citation: I’m a hiring manager). My sourcer will filter you out even before your resume hits my

“It’s fine even if it’s fifth or seventh” - this is bad advice (citation: I’m a hiring manager). My sourcer will filter you out even before your resume hits my part of the pipeline, so you can’t depend on me figuring out if you are a good candidate despite your bad tenure.

freedomben 4y ago
Can you describe your company? Are you a startup? A big corp?
- YuriNiyazov 4y ago
  50 software engineers, 100 total employees, post-series D
  - PheonixPharts 4y ago
    So you're a small startup no one has heard of, you offer ~50% of the TC most of the engineers you reach out to currently have and you're likely not going to survive until the next round of funding if interest rates keep rising. Nice. I've also been a hiring manager in similar environments and let me give you a bit of advice: don't boast about how strong your filter is. Your best bet at hiring talented engineers is to find great people who slip through the cracks everywhere else. You're not looking for candidates who could also pass a FAANG process, anyone who could and is applying for your team has something very wrong with them. What you're looking for is that diamond in the rough. That candidate that went to community college instead of Stanford but has built some amazing projects on the side. Or, that person who is not a good fit for big corps and so has left 2-3 of them after a year, might be a bit cranky but is absolutely brilliant and will thrive on the right team with a bit of humanity thrown their way. My best hires have been candidates that HR threw out.
    - sgustard 4y ago
      I'm also that hiring manager. First of all: HR is throwing out your best hires? Get on the same page with HR already. Next: Isn't FAANG all in a hiring freeze right now? All their staff looking at a 50% drop in their RSUs? Twitter's about to shed thousands of employees? There's no better time for startups to find people and pay them realistic salaries. The "hard to work with job hopper" isn't going to make the cut.
    - khazhoux 4y ago
      > So you're a small startup no one has heard of, you offer ~50% of the TC most of the engineers you reach out to currently have and you're likely not going to survive until the next round of funding if interest rates keep rising. Nice. Ouch, why so harsh? Startups are tough business and everyone knows it. Doesn't mean you should throw out your red flags in desperation, especially when the red flag in question is about the candidate's ability to commit to a company (or, their ability to identify a company or situation worth committing to).
    - YuriNiyazov 4y ago
      Thank you for the feedback.
smeagull 4y ago
That's fine, every hiring place has arbitrary rules to cut down on resumes. You can't just guess at what those will be and use those guesses to base major Career decisions. You'll always miss some stupid filters - it's why your job search is a numbers game.
- just_boost_it 4y ago
  There's arbitrary rules, and there's common sense. Managers hate hiring. When they're creating job descriptions, looking at resumes, and setting up and conducting interviews, deep down they just want to do it once and have that person do the job for the next 10 years. If you've burned through job after job, you'll only be attractive to very new, green managers who haven't had to go through the hiring process before, or a team that knows its the kind of place that just recycles people. Neither of those situations suggests an ideal work place. I mean we can all do what we like, but our decisions have logical consequences.
PragmaticPulp 4y ago
If someone has a couple bad jobs in a row, it's not a big deal. There are a lot of bad companies out there and it's easy to get lured into a couple of them. However, if someone shows up and claims to have had five or seven bad jobs in a row, you have to start looking at them as the common denominator. At that point, it's not even about short tenure any more. It's a warning sign that this person hasn't been able to get along with any teams anywhere. Some people just can't get along with anyone in the workplace for very long. If you hire them, it likely won't be long before they think you are their latest "bad job". > My sourcer will filter you out even before your resume hits my part of the pipeline, so you can’t depend on me figuring out if you are a good candidate despite your bad tenure. I've found the opposite with some recruiters: They'll have several candidates in their network/portfolio who are always unhappy and therefore always changing jobs. They try to slip them into the hiring pipeline because they know these people are so easy to convince to accept a new job. When the recruiter moves to a new company/firm, they go through the list and put all of their reliable job hoppers back into the queue.
- quickthrower2 4y ago
  Good old perverse incentives!
- Vibgyor5 4y ago
  I wonder what would be your take on my stints (non-tech Ops guy here, based out of Asia/Europe for reference). I have changed jobs 5 times in 6 years: # Company 1: First stint after university at a Bank. Management development program. Left after 4 months to join a startup backed by renowned European VC/accelerator. 4 months #Company 2: Technically an internship here which was supposed to be full-time after 6 months. 3 months in, co-founder who was also my hiring manager died - startup was on the verge of sinking. 5 months. #Company 3: Ops role with plenty of ownership at Food-delivery company (think Doordash for Europe). Left after 1 year due to personal reasons (had to move back to Asia due to medical reasons in my family) Good impact here though. #Company 4: Asian unicorn. Impactful role, scaled a new business vertical to $xM ARR fwiw. Left after 3 years to change industry. #Company 5: Booming startup that ultimately did not succeed. Very short time but still made some strides. 3 months. Laid off along with 75% of the company. Now, what's your take if you were to look at my resume? As you can see, I had just 1 long stint so far (3 years). My only saving grace is that my projects were at least somewhat notable. Especially in the current climate where entire teams can be laid off and many orgs are downsizing, I feel insecure that another short stint < 1-2 years would be a red flag to recruiters and Hiring Manager - circumstances notwithstanding.

freedomben 4y ago

Can you describe your company? Are you a startup? A big corp?

YuriNiyazov 4y ago
50 software engineers, 100 total employees, post-series D
- PheonixPharts 4y ago
  So you're a small startup no one has heard of, you offer ~50% of the TC most of the engineers you reach out to currently have and you're likely not going to survive until the next round of funding if interest rates keep rising. Nice. I've also been a hiring manager in similar environments and let me give you a bit of advice: don't boast about how strong your filter is. Your best bet at hiring talented engineers is to find great people who slip through the cracks everywhere else. You're not looking for candidates who could also pass a FAANG process, anyone who could and is applying for your team has something very wrong with them. What you're looking for is that diamond in the rough. That candidate that went to community college instead of Stanford but has built some amazing projects on the side. Or, that person who is not a good fit for big corps and so has left 2-3 of them after a year, might be a bit cranky but is absolutely brilliant and will thrive on the right team with a bit of humanity thrown their way. My best hires have been candidates that HR threw out.
  - sgustard 4y ago
    I'm also that hiring manager. First of all: HR is throwing out your best hires? Get on the same page with HR already. Next: Isn't FAANG all in a hiring freeze right now? All their staff looking at a 50% drop in their RSUs? Twitter's about to shed thousands of employees? There's no better time for startups to find people and pay them realistic salaries. The "hard to work with job hopper" isn't going to make the cut.
  - khazhoux 4y ago
    > So you're a small startup no one has heard of, you offer ~50% of the TC most of the engineers you reach out to currently have and you're likely not going to survive until the next round of funding if interest rates keep rising. Nice. Ouch, why so harsh? Startups are tough business and everyone knows it. Doesn't mean you should throw out your red flags in desperation, especially when the red flag in question is about the candidate's ability to commit to a company (or, their ability to identify a company or situation worth committing to).
  - YuriNiyazov 4y ago
    Thank you for the feedback.

smeagull 4y ago

That's fine, every hiring place has arbitrary rules to cut down on resumes. You can't just guess at what those will be and use those guesses to base major Career decisions. You'll always miss some stupid filters - it's why your job search is a numbers game.

just_boost_it 4y ago
There's arbitrary rules, and there's common sense. Managers hate hiring. When they're creating job descriptions, looking at resumes, and setting up and conducting interviews, deep down they just want to do it once and have that person do the job for the next 10 years. If you've burned through job after job, you'll only be attractive to very new, green managers who haven't had to go through the hiring process before, or a team that knows its the kind of place that just recycles people. Neither of those situations suggests an ideal work place. I mean we can all do what we like, but our decisions have logical consequences.

PragmaticPulp 4y ago

If someone has a couple bad jobs in a row, it's not a big deal. There are a lot of bad companies out there and it's easy to get lured into a couple of them. However, if someone shows up and claims to have had five or seven bad jobs in a row, you have to start looking at them as the common denominator. At that point, it's not even about short tenure any more. It's a warning sign that this person hasn't been able to get along with any teams anywhere. Some people just can't get along with anyone in the workplace for very long. If you hire them, it likely won't be long before they think you are their latest "bad job". > My sourcer will filter you out even before your resume hits my part of the pipeline, so you can’t depend on me figuring out if you are a good candidate despite your bad tenure. I've found the opposite with some recruiters: They'll have several candidates in their network/portfolio who are always unhappy and therefore always changing jobs. They try to slip them into the hiring pipeline because they know these people are so easy to convince to accept a new job. When the recruiter moves to a new company/firm, they go through the list and put all of their reliable job hoppers back into the queue.

quickthrower2 4y ago
Good old perverse incentives!
Vibgyor5 4y ago
I wonder what would be your take on my stints (non-tech Ops guy here, based out of Asia/Europe for reference). I have changed jobs 5 times in 6 years: # Company 1: First stint after university at a Bank. Management development program. Left after 4 months to join a startup backed by renowned European VC/accelerator. 4 months #Company 2: Technically an internship here which was supposed to be full-time after 6 months. 3 months in, co-founder who was also my hiring manager died - startup was on the verge of sinking. 5 months. #Company 3: Ops role with plenty of ownership at Food-delivery company (think Doordash for Europe). Left after 1 year due to personal reasons (had to move back to Asia due to medical reasons in my family) Good impact here though. #Company 4: Asian unicorn. Impactful role, scaled a new business vertical to $xM ARR fwiw. Left after 3 years to change industry. #Company 5: Booming startup that ultimately did not succeed. Very short time but still made some strides. 3 months. Laid off along with 75% of the company. Now, what's your take if you were to look at my resume? As you can see, I had just 1 long stint so far (3 years). My only saving grace is that my projects were at least somewhat notable. Especially in the current climate where entire teams can be laid off and many orgs are downsizing, I feel insecure that another short stint < 1-2 years would be a red flag to recruiters and Hiring Manager - circumstances notwithstanding.