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WFH is only going to make this worse. A top place people spend long amounts of time with others is work. Work is in top 2 places people make new romantic partne

by gernb 4y ago

WFH is only going to make this worse. A top place people spend long amounts of time with others is work. Work is in top 2 places people make new romantic partners, marriage partners, and friends. There's nothing on the horizon to replace it as a socializing force. Even if you WFH those ~8 hours a day, 40 days of week of sitting alone can't be made up for by socializing outside of that time, something you could already do before WFH. I'm not saying you should therefore be forced to go to the office. Rather I'm just pointing out WFH will arguably make this worse, maybe not for your specific situation, but in aggregate across the population, if WFH is the new normal then we'll need to social institutions to fix the lack of socialization opportunities that are being discarded.

vanilla_nut 4y ago
Great point. Personally I think this is a good thing -- I've never seen work as a great place to socialize, so I felt "left out" of that aspect of work life in the past. Now with WFH, maybe we'll see alternatives pop up more and more.
cirgue 4y ago
> WFH is only going to make this worse. My social life has improved massively since WFH became the norm. I eat lunch with my neighbors most days, I work from friends places/they work at mine on the reg, and it is way easier to have the energy to go out for dinner/drinks/other activities after work. I went to Chicago for a week last month to hang out with my friend and his wife and no one had to take any vacation days to make it happen. Everyone's situation is different, but I have a tough time imagining that WFH is going to lead to a reduction in socialization on balance if people are now able to control their schedules more easily.
- rabuse 4y ago
  Mind if I ask what location this is where your neighbors are so "neighborly"?
  - edmcnulty101 4y ago
    Literally anywhere if you're a friendly person? I go work at a coffee shop and coworking spaces and have made more friends then going into an office and seeing the same 10 people everyday. How could you extrapolate that seeing the same office people everyday all day is good for.yiur social life.
    - asow92 4y ago
      When you work at coworking spaces, do you prefer a private desk or flex desk / lounge out in the open?
      - edmcnulty101 4y ago
        Either way. I find I meet people at the events the co-working spaces throw or in the break rooms or kitchen.
    - rafaelero 4y ago
      > How could you extrapolate that seeing the same office people everyday all day is good for.yiur social life. Because it's easier to interact with someone when we are dealing with the same project / sharing the experience of being an employee for the same company?
      - edmcnulty101 4y ago
        If you're not a company man and have interests outside of work... what you're proposing sounds like an absolute nightmare.
        rafaelero 4y ago
        It's not about work. In the same way that high school friends are not about the high school... I feel like I am running in circles here.
        4y ago
- gernb 4y ago
  Sounds nice. Though not as nice as collaborating with co-workers. How do you deal with meetings? work info that's not public? etc..?
  - j-bos 4y ago
    What makes collaborating with coworkers nicer than spending time with friends?
    - wincy 4y ago
      People have friends? Every person I’ve been friends with outside work has either moved away or stopped hanging out with me once I got a career and a family. The only people who really “give me a chance” because I’m a little weird are people I work with because I’m useful I guess? So there’s time for me to grow on them. My social life has definitely suffered since WFH. In fact the only people I see regularly are people I used to work with by inviting them to lunch.
      - j-bos 4y ago
        I'm sorry to hear that. This is a real challenge. Among my circles, work and otherwise, there's strong non work connections, like different circles that happen to overlap im the company. Immigrant, religious, volunteer based, etc. But it makes sense that those in a circle might miss that others are not in a circle.
        wincy 4y ago
        During the lockdowns our house was quite popular as like an underground Libertarian hangout spot for nerdy board game players and people who liked low stakes poker. I made friends with a former Magic the Gathering world champ because of that. I guess I do have friends they’re just the kind of people who don’t do much unless invited to something. I guess that’s how MOST people are. A lot of people just want their socializing handed to them.
        4y ago
- elforce002 4y ago
  This. It seems people forgot how to socialize or that they have friends outside work. I just hope don't comeback to the office for a long time.
- hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
  There is a big difference between socializing with existing friends and making new friends. I can dig it up somewhere, but I recall a study that pointed to something along the lines of "serendipitous time together" as one of the biggest factors in making new friends - it highlighted why so many people make lifelong friend groups in college. The fact is that now people, across all aspects of society (not just referring to work from home) have much less opportunity for these kinds of serendipitous interactions: we can order tons of stuff online instead of shopping at retail stores, we can order food from a bajillion places instead of going out to eat, we can stay in and watch Netflix instead of going to a movie. And while all of these conveniences, individually, may be very nice, overall they have the effect that we just have a ton fewer in-person interactions, on average, with other people.
  - humanrebar 4y ago
    In my experience, commuting eats into the time and energy baseline that would be needed for "serendipity". To give a concrete example, I'm not volunteering at the PTO if I am commuting ten hours per week. I'm not having meals and making friends with other parents in my neighborhood.
    - hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
      I think your response highlights the point I was making, and also highlights why you see polarization around this issue. If you're talking about "volunteering at the PTO", my guess is that you are married with children. Most people who are married with children already have most of their social framework "set", and often times (at least in the US) so much of their free time revolves are child rearing and their childrens' activities such that most of their "neighborhood friends" revolve around the serendipitous encounters they have with other parents - the PTO as you mention, sports games, etc. But for people at an earlier stage of their life and career, I think you'll find they often have a different outlook. They're often looking for a spouse, they have much more free time without kids so they're looking to meet people, etc. For me personally, I'm also at a stage where my social connections are pretty set. But I got so many of my early workplace connections when I joined a job that had a "bootcamp" 2 month training program for new grads. I've gotten nearly every subsequent job over a couple decades from that first job, not to mention many close friends. I know I wouldn't have had those close connections if I had been solely WFH in my first job out of college.
- squokko 4y ago
  Different people are different. You're seem to be highly socially functional. There are a lot of people who aren't, and have no friends, and whose only exposure to social interactions are at the office. These people are at much higher risk of bad outcomes like depression, suicide, etc., than someone like you. Someone like Milton from Office Space. Now, of course, there could be people who work at an office, say, as a security guard in an industrial facility where they never see anyone, have friends who they can't see and are depressed about it, and if they can WFH watching surveillance feeds, it makes them better off. Don't doubt that this can exist, but my gut feel is that Category 1 is bigger than Category 2.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
    <<There are a lot of people who aren't, and have no friends, and whose only exposure to social interactions are at the office. These people are at much higher risk of bad outcomes like depression, suicide, etc., I wrote several versions of this response including one that touched on how quickly "we are in this together" morphed back into the usual "got mine, fuck you" during start of Covid. I hesitated several times. Ran it internally against HN rules about taking stuff at face value, but I think at the end of the whole process only one real question came back to me. Is it really my responsibility to live somebody else's life? To me answer came back quickly. It is not.
    - squokko 4y ago
      It’s not your responsibility to live someone else’s life but it is the responsibility of senior decision makers to set policies that broadly benefit the populace even if they hurt some people. Is it your responsibility to heal the sick? No, but government can tax you to do so, and now maybe you can’t get the leather seats in your Audi.
      - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
        <<No, but government can tax you to do so, and now maybe you can’t get the leather seats in your Audi. You want to avoid sniping. It is typically frowned upon. That said, believe it or not, we are not that far apart on that front. The issue I have with the argument presented is that senior decision makers do not set policies that broadly benefit the populace ( as evidenced by reality itself ). Apart from that, why are senior decision makers even a consideration here? The recession in the article is that of the mind. It is spiritual in nature ( and that is assuming we are assuming posited argument ). If you are going to throw suicides at me again, I will ask you a simple question. Why are suicides are inherently a bad thing? People want to die. Why do you feel you have an obligation to stop them?
- booleandilemma 4y ago
  I live in nyc. My neighbors don't speak english and they're not interested in socializing with me at all. We have nothing in common culturally or otherwise, besides living in the same building.
  - SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
    I think you all can bond over living in the same building. A telegram group or something can help a lot, someone will need something and ask, someone will watch for porch pirates, someone will notice a stranger in the halls…
    - 9530jh9054ven 4y ago
      I think that's what he's talking about. How is that going to work if he can't speak their language and they can't speak English?
      - mkmk3 4y ago
        Translation tools are solid and stuff like Duolingo are pretty good for basics, and people usually appreciate others making an effort with their language. Not easy for sure, but if you're determined to improve your relationship with your neighbours it might be good to consider (I find it has an outsized impact in terms of being well socialized, a warmer atmosphere sometimes really makes a difference) It's easy to poke holes in peoples reasons why they can't do xyz, I'm still struggling and eating shit with this as an expat after some years. It's hard, but if that's your challenge and you can convince yourself it's an option, I think it's probably an option.
      - pedrosorio 4y ago
        A clear use case for AI, if I have ever seen one (and something you can download an app for pretty easily).
rafaelero 4y ago
> WFH is only going to make this worse. Absolutely. No way we are stripping 8h of daily socialization without any adversal effect on our social lives. I can feel it myself. And no, "finding other places to talk to people" is not a solution, because work time is 50% of my waking hours, and removing that social connection is terrible by itself.
- waboremo 4y ago
  Finding other places to talk to people is a solution it's just not one you're willing to take seriously due to prioritizing work over a social life. There is a group of people that genuinely have an excuse here, but most of their jobs weren't even applicable for WFH and they're working insane hours just for minimum wage.
  - rafaelero 4y ago
    Oh, but I am willing. But will I get fired if I do so? Because if I am going to socialize during worktime I won't be available right away during this period.
    - waboremo 4y ago
      I don't know, are you going to get fired for joining a book club?
      - rafaelero 4y ago
        During work time? I am not sure actually.
- Loocid 4y ago
  There is no way 8h of work can be classed as 8h of socialization. Especially in fields that can be done WFH. The vast majority of my work hours are spent facing the screen not socializing with anyone. A more realistic number would be a couple of hours in my opinion, which is still significant.
lezojeda 4y ago
Although I agree, nothing would make me spend ~2hs daily commuting again. My company's office is 40 minutes by subway + 25 min walking if I choose to walk to the station. It's even worse considering I work as contractor for a software factory (consulting firm, sorry not native english here) so the people I specifically work currently with are not even from my country. Plus I won't ever probably know about them 3 months from now. I think daily about this issue but working again for a national company would mean earning 50% less of my salary probably... so tough choice. Any advice or recommendations from other contractors/freelance workers are appreciated.
asow92 4y ago
Do you think that coworking spaces could be a potential way to merge the WFH ethos with our inherent need to socialize?
rayiner 4y ago
This Stanford university study suggests almost 90% of couples met somewhere other than work: https://www.statista.com/chart/amp/20822/way-of-meeting-partner-heterosexual-us-couples/ https://www.statista.com/chart/amp/20822/way-of-meeting-part...
syntheweave 4y ago
WFH coincides with rapidly rising interest in urbanist views(the "Not Just Bikes" and "Strong Towns" crowd). The previous US era's low trust ceded all ground to private spaces: if you went out, it was to work, to buy something, or to participate in some structured activity like exercise. The "town squares" to idle in disappeared, hence workplaces became very central to people's lives as the only kind of commons. And the public roads defined themselves around automobile traffic, another way of making a private space, or at least the illusion of such. The previous generations accepted this as the terms of the good life; near-total control over the private domain, even where it came with negative externalities. This is the thing that is now being questioned, because for younger generations, there has been little opportunity to "get on the property ladder". They have been crowded into working from home with four roommates. When they go online, it is mediated by surveillance at every turn. And it costs too much now to go for long drives by car. Their private space sucks! As I see it, the energy of the youth is gradually being sapped away from political movements made on private terms - blaming an other to justify further division of public space - towards the idea of revitalizing the commons, an idea which has a kind of inevitability behind it coming from this low point, since it satisfies a huge diversity of needs. Remaking the public space is, in fact, stunningly easy: close a few roads in urban centers, near destinations, to auto traffic, and put out some seating. Times Square did this; JFK Drive as well. Both are transformed places. When the cars are cleared out and you have "eyes on the street", the perceptions of cities as fundamentally anonymous places disappear, as well. This only becomes more true as alternate modes of mobility are introduced; the huge uptake of ebikes nationwide has exceeded every expectation and has created a flywheel of demand for more urban bike infrastructure, and therefore more public space.
- Mountain_Skies 4y ago
  That only works if you're willing to be ruthless is cracking down on unapproved behaviors and activities. Most public spaces weren't destroyed by automobiles, they were destroyed by humans produced by contemporary society. A drunk masturbating in front of children in the park isn't caused by a lack of ebikes.
  - nicbou 4y ago
marze 4y ago
The virtual presence tech should be near equivalent to in-person interactions within four years.
- hexatin 4y ago
  Our voice communication software isn’t even near equivalent to in-person voice communication yet, and it is rather mature technology at this point. Consider how much easier an in-person conversation with multiple people interrupting each other or even talking simultaneously goes, compared to the awkwardness of a zoom call where nobody is willing to even unmute to laugh since it draws focus away from whoever was previously talking, is inevitably poorly timed due to network delay, and in general slows everything down. Forgive me if your comment was meant as sarcasm, but I think solving even this problem could take more than four years, and it is only a fraction of the puzzle for equivalency to in-person interactions.
  - randomdata 4y ago
    > compared to the awkwardness of a zoom call where nobody is willing to even unmute to laugh since it draws focus away from whoever was previously talking I've never noticed anyone doing that when on calls with friends. I have in meetings at work, but there people hide on mute because they don't really want to be there in the first place and are probably off aimlessly browsing the web or trying to catch up on actual work. In the scant few work meetings that are purposeful and engaging, however, I've found plenty of laughter.
andyetwork 4y ago
And yet work is the worst place to seek a relationship, according to hundreds of thousands of Reddit anecdotes and Psychology Today articles, because there's Power Imbalance and that means developing a healthy relationship is impossible, plus HR hates employee-employee relationships, and you can't pretend Work Spouse is the same as Home Spouse. And yet school, university, college is also bad, because that's the time to Experiment and Fall In Love multiple times, and Date Around, and Make Friends, and if you don't do the Prescheduled Infantile Erotic Socializing like you're required, you're defective and should go back to the vat. And yet Discord and Reddit are also bad, because if you meet someone on there and develop a romantic relationship with them, you must be a groomer, or a pedophile, or a Nazi. And yet Tinder is bad, because it provides a short-term dopamine hit to get you addicted to swiping and looking at ads, stealing your time without actually giving you anything. And yet dating college students after you've graduated is also bad, because everyone knows a friend of a friend whose son/daughter dated a graduate and it ended horribly with tears and fisticuffs all around. What you should be doing is hitting people up at the library. Wait, no, I saw a reddit post about how that's cringe and disgusting. Ok, I'll try to meet people at the gym. Oh wait, no, I've seen even more Reddit posts about how horrible that is; people at the gym are trying to get healthy, not date! Ok, I'll blindly message people on Instagram. Hold on... I don't have an Instagram. How about I just go to the bar with some friends? Unfortunately, none of my friends go to bars, because they're over 40, too busy getting their degrees, or don't exist. Ok, so the solution is to go out in the street, strip down naked, and run around doing cartwheels until someone declares me a romantic interest. And people wonder why YouTubers are some of the loneliest, most stressed people, and why the loneliest, most stressed people seem so interested in starting a YouTube channel. And yet... most millenials and Gen X and Boomers are doing fine. So this is all a hullabaloo invented to let the zoomers/iGen know, with force, that if they don't shut up and elope, and keep the babies flowing, all the markets are going to crash all at once when the Boomers finally decide they're done being alive and hook up the helium breathing mask. t. Zoomer
- tsunagatta 4y ago
  As another Zoomer, I just wanted to say how well you’ve captured the experience I’ve also had of growing confusion/discouragement when it comes to how to approach relationships — especially now that I’m out of college, and not able to draw on any of the social power of that environment. I feel like I keep running into walls of “Maybe this is the thing…” only to be flooded with reasons why it absolutely isn’t the thing. I suppose the first answer most people would give is “stop listening to Reddit,” but that still leaves me with the question of, well, then what?
Arcanum-XIII 4y ago
I know lot of small shop owner. They need, by definition, to be at work all day, everyday. They’re all complaining that work is the only place they can meet people, but that it’s hardly a way to have friends and so are losing them. I know also of manual labor job worker that complaint of the same thing. Your lense is only working for job in office like environment. You have to create most of the time the opportunities to really meet new people. Hoping to get that randomly at your job Is not the best way I think.
snird 4y ago
WFH is making it much better for me. In work you have no friends, you have colleagues. Maybe 1% of them really care about you. Even those who seems like they care about you, are so used to see you by default every day, that you never develop a way to communicate otherwise - so when you will change jobs, they will disappear. These fake relationship in the workplace are the main reason you'll find yourself alone in your 30s. But WFH allow me to cultivate REAL friendships with people that choose to communicate with me without being forced by "being in the same office". Long term, this is the only way not to end up alone.
marcus_holmes 4y ago
I think this is sad, though - work should not be the primary source of socialisation. The fact that it is (or used to be) is sad, and we should be glad that this is changing.

by gernb 4y ago

vanilla_nut 4y ago

Great point. Personally I think this is a good thing -- I've never seen work as a great place to socialize, so I felt "left out" of that aspect of work life in the past. Now with WFH, maybe we'll see alternatives pop up more and more.

cirgue 4y ago

> WFH is only going to make this worse. My social life has improved massively since WFH became the norm. I eat lunch with my neighbors most days, I work from friends places/they work at mine on the reg, and it is way easier to have the energy to go out for dinner/drinks/other activities after work. I went to Chicago for a week last month to hang out with my friend and his wife and no one had to take any vacation days to make it happen. Everyone's situation is different, but I have a tough time imagining that WFH is going to lead to a reduction in socialization on balance if people are now able to control their schedules more easily.

rabuse 4y ago
Mind if I ask what location this is where your neighbors are so "neighborly"?
- edmcnulty101 4y ago
  Literally anywhere if you're a friendly person? I go work at a coffee shop and coworking spaces and have made more friends then going into an office and seeing the same 10 people everyday. How could you extrapolate that seeing the same office people everyday all day is good for.yiur social life.
  - asow92 4y ago
    When you work at coworking spaces, do you prefer a private desk or flex desk / lounge out in the open?
    - edmcnulty101 4y ago
      Either way. I find I meet people at the events the co-working spaces throw or in the break rooms or kitchen.
  - rafaelero 4y ago
    > How could you extrapolate that seeing the same office people everyday all day is good for.yiur social life. Because it's easier to interact with someone when we are dealing with the same project / sharing the experience of being an employee for the same company?
    - edmcnulty101 4y ago
      If you're not a company man and have interests outside of work... what you're proposing sounds like an absolute nightmare.
      - rafaelero 4y ago
        It's not about work. In the same way that high school friends are not about the high school... I feel like I am running in circles here.
        4y ago
gernb 4y ago
Sounds nice. Though not as nice as collaborating with co-workers. How do you deal with meetings? work info that's not public? etc..?
- j-bos 4y ago
  What makes collaborating with coworkers nicer than spending time with friends?
  - wincy 4y ago
    People have friends? Every person I’ve been friends with outside work has either moved away or stopped hanging out with me once I got a career and a family. The only people who really “give me a chance” because I’m a little weird are people I work with because I’m useful I guess? So there’s time for me to grow on them. My social life has definitely suffered since WFH. In fact the only people I see regularly are people I used to work with by inviting them to lunch.
    - j-bos 4y ago
      I'm sorry to hear that. This is a real challenge. Among my circles, work and otherwise, there's strong non work connections, like different circles that happen to overlap im the company. Immigrant, religious, volunteer based, etc. But it makes sense that those in a circle might miss that others are not in a circle.
      - wincy 4y ago
        During the lockdowns our house was quite popular as like an underground Libertarian hangout spot for nerdy board game players and people who liked low stakes poker. I made friends with a former Magic the Gathering world champ because of that. I guess I do have friends they’re just the kind of people who don’t do much unless invited to something. I guess that’s how MOST people are. A lot of people just want their socializing handed to them.
        4y ago
elforce002 4y ago
This. It seems people forgot how to socialize or that they have friends outside work. I just hope don't comeback to the office for a long time.
hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
There is a big difference between socializing with existing friends and making new friends. I can dig it up somewhere, but I recall a study that pointed to something along the lines of "serendipitous time together" as one of the biggest factors in making new friends - it highlighted why so many people make lifelong friend groups in college. The fact is that now people, across all aspects of society (not just referring to work from home) have much less opportunity for these kinds of serendipitous interactions: we can order tons of stuff online instead of shopping at retail stores, we can order food from a bajillion places instead of going out to eat, we can stay in and watch Netflix instead of going to a movie. And while all of these conveniences, individually, may be very nice, overall they have the effect that we just have a ton fewer in-person interactions, on average, with other people.
- humanrebar 4y ago
  In my experience, commuting eats into the time and energy baseline that would be needed for "serendipity". To give a concrete example, I'm not volunteering at the PTO if I am commuting ten hours per week. I'm not having meals and making friends with other parents in my neighborhood.
  - hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
    I think your response highlights the point I was making, and also highlights why you see polarization around this issue. If you're talking about "volunteering at the PTO", my guess is that you are married with children. Most people who are married with children already have most of their social framework "set", and often times (at least in the US) so much of their free time revolves are child rearing and their childrens' activities such that most of their "neighborhood friends" revolve around the serendipitous encounters they have with other parents - the PTO as you mention, sports games, etc. But for people at an earlier stage of their life and career, I think you'll find they often have a different outlook. They're often looking for a spouse, they have much more free time without kids so they're looking to meet people, etc. For me personally, I'm also at a stage where my social connections are pretty set. But I got so many of my early workplace connections when I joined a job that had a "bootcamp" 2 month training program for new grads. I've gotten nearly every subsequent job over a couple decades from that first job, not to mention many close friends. I know I wouldn't have had those close connections if I had been solely WFH in my first job out of college.
squokko 4y ago
Different people are different. You're seem to be highly socially functional. There are a lot of people who aren't, and have no friends, and whose only exposure to social interactions are at the office. These people are at much higher risk of bad outcomes like depression, suicide, etc., than someone like you. Someone like Milton from Office Space. Now, of course, there could be people who work at an office, say, as a security guard in an industrial facility where they never see anyone, have friends who they can't see and are depressed about it, and if they can WFH watching surveillance feeds, it makes them better off. Don't doubt that this can exist, but my gut feel is that Category 1 is bigger than Category 2.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  <<There are a lot of people who aren't, and have no friends, and whose only exposure to social interactions are at the office. These people are at much higher risk of bad outcomes like depression, suicide, etc., I wrote several versions of this response including one that touched on how quickly "we are in this together" morphed back into the usual "got mine, fuck you" during start of Covid. I hesitated several times. Ran it internally against HN rules about taking stuff at face value, but I think at the end of the whole process only one real question came back to me. Is it really my responsibility to live somebody else's life? To me answer came back quickly. It is not.
  - squokko 4y ago
    It’s not your responsibility to live someone else’s life but it is the responsibility of senior decision makers to set policies that broadly benefit the populace even if they hurt some people. Is it your responsibility to heal the sick? No, but government can tax you to do so, and now maybe you can’t get the leather seats in your Audi.
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
      <<No, but government can tax you to do so, and now maybe you can’t get the leather seats in your Audi. You want to avoid sniping. It is typically frowned upon. That said, believe it or not, we are not that far apart on that front. The issue I have with the argument presented is that senior decision makers do not set policies that broadly benefit the populace ( as evidenced by reality itself ). Apart from that, why are senior decision makers even a consideration here? The recession in the article is that of the mind. It is spiritual in nature ( and that is assuming we are assuming posited argument ). If you are going to throw suicides at me again, I will ask you a simple question. Why are suicides are inherently a bad thing? People want to die. Why do you feel you have an obligation to stop them?
booleandilemma 4y ago
I live in nyc. My neighbors don't speak english and they're not interested in socializing with me at all. We have nothing in common culturally or otherwise, besides living in the same building.
- SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
  I think you all can bond over living in the same building. A telegram group or something can help a lot, someone will need something and ask, someone will watch for porch pirates, someone will notice a stranger in the halls…
  - 9530jh9054ven 4y ago
    I think that's what he's talking about. How is that going to work if he can't speak their language and they can't speak English?
    - mkmk3 4y ago
      Translation tools are solid and stuff like Duolingo are pretty good for basics, and people usually appreciate others making an effort with their language. Not easy for sure, but if you're determined to improve your relationship with your neighbours it might be good to consider (I find it has an outsized impact in terms of being well socialized, a warmer atmosphere sometimes really makes a difference) It's easy to poke holes in peoples reasons why they can't do xyz, I'm still struggling and eating shit with this as an expat after some years. It's hard, but if that's your challenge and you can convince yourself it's an option, I think it's probably an option.
    - pedrosorio 4y ago
      A clear use case for AI, if I have ever seen one (and something you can download an app for pretty easily).

rafaelero 4y ago

> WFH is only going to make this worse. Absolutely. No way we are stripping 8h of daily socialization without any adversal effect on our social lives. I can feel it myself. And no, "finding other places to talk to people" is not a solution, because work time is 50% of my waking hours, and removing that social connection is terrible by itself.

waboremo 4y ago
Finding other places to talk to people is a solution it's just not one you're willing to take seriously due to prioritizing work over a social life. There is a group of people that genuinely have an excuse here, but most of their jobs weren't even applicable for WFH and they're working insane hours just for minimum wage.
- rafaelero 4y ago
  Oh, but I am willing. But will I get fired if I do so? Because if I am going to socialize during worktime I won't be available right away during this period.
  - waboremo 4y ago
    I don't know, are you going to get fired for joining a book club?
    - rafaelero 4y ago
      During work time? I am not sure actually.
Loocid 4y ago
There is no way 8h of work can be classed as 8h of socialization. Especially in fields that can be done WFH. The vast majority of my work hours are spent facing the screen not socializing with anyone. A more realistic number would be a couple of hours in my opinion, which is still significant.

lezojeda 4y ago

Although I agree, nothing would make me spend ~2hs daily commuting again. My company's office is 40 minutes by subway + 25 min walking if I choose to walk to the station. It's even worse considering I work as contractor for a software factory (consulting firm, sorry not native english here) so the people I specifically work currently with are not even from my country. Plus I won't ever probably know about them 3 months from now. I think daily about this issue but working again for a national company would mean earning 50% less of my salary probably... so tough choice. Any advice or recommendations from other contractors/freelance workers are appreciated.

asow92 4y ago

Do you think that coworking spaces could be a potential way to merge the WFH ethos with our inherent need to socialize?

rayiner 4y ago

This Stanford university study suggests almost 90% of couples met somewhere other than work: https://www.statista.com/chart/amp/20822/way-of-meeting-partner-heterosexual-us-couples/ https://www.statista.com/chart/amp/20822/way-of-meeting-part...

syntheweave 4y ago

WFH coincides with rapidly rising interest in urbanist views(the "Not Just Bikes" and "Strong Towns" crowd). The previous US era's low trust ceded all ground to private spaces: if you went out, it was to work, to buy something, or to participate in some structured activity like exercise. The "town squares" to idle in disappeared, hence workplaces became very central to people's lives as the only kind of commons. And the public roads defined themselves around automobile traffic, another way of making a private space, or at least the illusion of such. The previous generations accepted this as the terms of the good life; near-total control over the private domain, even where it came with negative externalities. This is the thing that is now being questioned, because for younger generations, there has been little opportunity to "get on the property ladder". They have been crowded into working from home with four roommates. When they go online, it is mediated by surveillance at every turn. And it costs too much now to go for long drives by car. Their private space sucks! As I see it, the energy of the youth is gradually being sapped away from political movements made on private terms - blaming an other to justify further division of public space - towards the idea of revitalizing the commons, an idea which has a kind of inevitability behind it coming from this low point, since it satisfies a huge diversity of needs. Remaking the public space is, in fact, stunningly easy: close a few roads in urban centers, near destinations, to auto traffic, and put out some seating. Times Square did this; JFK Drive as well. Both are transformed places. When the cars are cleared out and you have "eyes on the street", the perceptions of cities as fundamentally anonymous places disappear, as well. This only becomes more true as alternate modes of mobility are introduced; the huge uptake of ebikes nationwide has exceeded every expectation and has created a flywheel of demand for more urban bike infrastructure, and therefore more public space.

Mountain_Skies 4y ago
That only works if you're willing to be ruthless is cracking down on unapproved behaviors and activities. Most public spaces weren't destroyed by automobiles, they were destroyed by humans produced by contemporary society. A drunk masturbating in front of children in the park isn't caused by a lack of ebikes.
- nicbou 4y ago

marze 4y ago

The virtual presence tech should be near equivalent to in-person interactions within four years.

hexatin 4y ago
Our voice communication software isn’t even near equivalent to in-person voice communication yet, and it is rather mature technology at this point. Consider how much easier an in-person conversation with multiple people interrupting each other or even talking simultaneously goes, compared to the awkwardness of a zoom call where nobody is willing to even unmute to laugh since it draws focus away from whoever was previously talking, is inevitably poorly timed due to network delay, and in general slows everything down. Forgive me if your comment was meant as sarcasm, but I think solving even this problem could take more than four years, and it is only a fraction of the puzzle for equivalency to in-person interactions.
- randomdata 4y ago
  > compared to the awkwardness of a zoom call where nobody is willing to even unmute to laugh since it draws focus away from whoever was previously talking I've never noticed anyone doing that when on calls with friends. I have in meetings at work, but there people hide on mute because they don't really want to be there in the first place and are probably off aimlessly browsing the web or trying to catch up on actual work. In the scant few work meetings that are purposeful and engaging, however, I've found plenty of laughter.

andyetwork 4y ago

And yet work is the worst place to seek a relationship, according to hundreds of thousands of Reddit anecdotes and Psychology Today articles, because there's Power Imbalance and that means developing a healthy relationship is impossible, plus HR hates employee-employee relationships, and you can't pretend Work Spouse is the same as Home Spouse. And yet school, university, college is also bad, because that's the time to Experiment and Fall In Love multiple times, and Date Around, and Make Friends, and if you don't do the Prescheduled Infantile Erotic Socializing like you're required, you're defective and should go back to the vat. And yet Discord and Reddit are also bad, because if you meet someone on there and develop a romantic relationship with them, you must be a groomer, or a pedophile, or a Nazi. And yet Tinder is bad, because it provides a short-term dopamine hit to get you addicted to swiping and looking at ads, stealing your time without actually giving you anything. And yet dating college students after you've graduated is also bad, because everyone knows a friend of a friend whose son/daughter dated a graduate and it ended horribly with tears and fisticuffs all around. What you should be doing is hitting people up at the library. Wait, no, I saw a reddit post about how that's cringe and disgusting. Ok, I'll try to meet people at the gym. Oh wait, no, I've seen even more Reddit posts about how horrible that is; people at the gym are trying to get healthy, not date! Ok, I'll blindly message people on Instagram. Hold on... I don't have an Instagram. How about I just go to the bar with some friends? Unfortunately, none of my friends go to bars, because they're over 40, too busy getting their degrees, or don't exist. Ok, so the solution is to go out in the street, strip down naked, and run around doing cartwheels until someone declares me a romantic interest. And people wonder why YouTubers are some of the loneliest, most stressed people, and why the loneliest, most stressed people seem so interested in starting a YouTube channel. And yet... most millenials and Gen X and Boomers are doing fine. So this is all a hullabaloo invented to let the zoomers/iGen know, with force, that if they don't shut up and elope, and keep the babies flowing, all the markets are going to crash all at once when the Boomers finally decide they're done being alive and hook up the helium breathing mask. t. Zoomer

tsunagatta 4y ago
As another Zoomer, I just wanted to say how well you’ve captured the experience I’ve also had of growing confusion/discouragement when it comes to how to approach relationships — especially now that I’m out of college, and not able to draw on any of the social power of that environment. I feel like I keep running into walls of “Maybe this is the thing…” only to be flooded with reasons why it absolutely isn’t the thing. I suppose the first answer most people would give is “stop listening to Reddit,” but that still leaves me with the question of, well, then what?

Arcanum-XIII 4y ago

I know lot of small shop owner. They need, by definition, to be at work all day, everyday. They’re all complaining that work is the only place they can meet people, but that it’s hardly a way to have friends and so are losing them. I know also of manual labor job worker that complaint of the same thing. Your lense is only working for job in office like environment. You have to create most of the time the opportunities to really meet new people. Hoping to get that randomly at your job Is not the best way I think.

snird 4y ago

WFH is making it much better for me. In work you have no friends, you have colleagues. Maybe 1% of them really care about you. Even those who seems like they care about you, are so used to see you by default every day, that you never develop a way to communicate otherwise - so when you will change jobs, they will disappear. These fake relationship in the workplace are the main reason you'll find yourself alone in your 30s. But WFH allow me to cultivate REAL friendships with people that choose to communicate with me without being forced by "being in the same office". Long term, this is the only way not to end up alone.

marcus_holmes 4y ago

I think this is sad, though - work should not be the primary source of socialisation. The fact that it is (or used to be) is sad, and we should be glad that this is changing.