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They're not collectivist societies. South Korea in particular is effectively more American than America. From shopping-mall centric kpop to double eyelid surger

They're not collectivist societies. South Korea in particular is effectively more American than America. From shopping-mall centric kpop to double eyelid surgery, no country has so thoroughly absorbed Western standards as SK has, and then some. Japan slightly less so, but not by much. Even China today is ruggedly individualistic with much less social trust than you'd find in Europe or the US. If anything funnily enough as some people have pointed out, countries like Britain now look like Japan did 20 years ago, they've if anything leapfrogged us at our own game. I've traveled a lot, in particular Asia and I would struggle to name one country that actually deserves to be called collectivist.

jkhdigital 4y ago
I think the real issue is that "collectivist" and "individualist" are very crude terms that attempt to summarize a whole litany of cultural nuances. My son just started 2nd grade here in Japan after being born and raised in the US (spouse is Japanese). It's really clear that here, children are socialized to think of the group to which they belong before themselves when contemplating their actions. Stated differently, people are socialized to identify strongly with the groups to which they belong. Does this mean the society is "collectivist"? I don't really know. I do observe that many of the social activities involved in group cohesion here are viewed as somewhat burdensome obligations. I believe it was de Tocqueville who first observed the seemingly novel and unique way in which Americans viewed social association: "When citizens can associate only in certain cases, they regard association as a rare and singular process, and they hardly think of it. When you allow them to associate freely in everything, they end up seeing in association the universal and, so to speak, unique means that men can use to attain the various ends that they propose. Each new need immediately awakens the idea of association. The art of association then becomes, as I said above, the mother science; everyone studies it and applies it." https://oll.libertyfund.org/quote/tocqueville-on-the-spirit-of-association-1835 https://oll.libertyfund.org/quote/tocqueville-on-the-spirit-...
- Barrin92 4y ago
  that is a very good point. I think what Japan really is and what you observe in the culture correctly is conformism. And paradoxically, it's the atomized nature and individualism that enables it. A generalization that's often made about East-Asian countries is that they have weak civil societies and strong states and it's the latter I think that leads people in the West too easily to think of them as collectivist. But it's really the lack of spontaneous association (I like the Tocqueville quote) and the passivity that enable that situation. The US in that sense is much more collectivist than we generally think, and one case for this in my opinion is the surprising energy that they can quickly gather to rally people behind a cause ,for example militarily. Americans are very quickly to mobilize and pursue quite abstract collective goals.
porknubbins 4y ago
I would argue Japan and Korea at least maintain a degree of collectivism- in areas such as extended family living arrangements, support for local business and agriculture, and (ostensible) income and educational equality etc, but its actually all window dressing when your economy is thoroughly modernized on a western model. The economy is life and death- the thing that tells young people you have to move to Tokyo and join the rat race. Though in Japan at least I have seen encouraging trends of people opting out.
JamesianP 4y ago
I've always thought Chaebols seemed like a kind of marriage between collectivism and capitalism. I certainly don't consider it American-style when it comes to capitalism. As for shopping malls and other hardcore evidence of "Americanism", from what I've read the US still leads the world in retail shopping space by an embarrassing amount if anything. As for K-pop, this is one I don't understand. How is it different from western boy/girl bands or for that matter J-pop, other than being export-oriented it seems.
- detaro 4y ago
  Why are Chaebols more collectivist than e.g like General Electric?
  - JamesianP 4y ago
    Their success is a collective goal. They are created and maintained by the govt as well as supported by the public as a way of mainlining control over the economy versus foreign companies. The more collectivist countries and the more collectivist-oriented policies in mixed economies certainly do strive for the same things with the same tactics. So I obviously am not saying large US companies are devoid of collectivism or don't owe any success to it. But they are a smaller factor here. Personally I suspect giant US companies arise out of courtroom victories more than any other factor. I'm not sure where to categorize that exactly. Maybe Beurocratism. At least it has a kind of impartiality to it, though also tending to benefit the market leader the most in its own way.

jkhdigital 4y ago

I think the real issue is that "collectivist" and "individualist" are very crude terms that attempt to summarize a whole litany of cultural nuances. My son just started 2nd grade here in Japan after being born and raised in the US (spouse is Japanese). It's really clear that here, children are socialized to think of the group to which they belong before themselves when contemplating their actions. Stated differently, people are socialized to identify strongly with the groups to which they belong. Does this mean the society is "collectivist"? I don't really know. I do observe that many of the social activities involved in group cohesion here are viewed as somewhat burdensome obligations. I believe it was de Tocqueville who first observed the seemingly novel and unique way in which Americans viewed social association: "When citizens can associate only in certain cases, they regard association as a rare and singular process, and they hardly think of it. When you allow them to associate freely in everything, they end up seeing in association the universal and, so to speak, unique means that men can use to attain the various ends that they propose. Each new need immediately awakens the idea of association. The art of association then becomes, as I said above, the mother science; everyone studies it and applies it." https://oll.libertyfund.org/quote/tocqueville-on-the-spirit-of-association-1835 https://oll.libertyfund.org/quote/tocqueville-on-the-spirit-...

Barrin92 4y ago
that is a very good point. I think what Japan really is and what you observe in the culture correctly is conformism. And paradoxically, it's the atomized nature and individualism that enables it. A generalization that's often made about East-Asian countries is that they have weak civil societies and strong states and it's the latter I think that leads people in the West too easily to think of them as collectivist. But it's really the lack of spontaneous association (I like the Tocqueville quote) and the passivity that enable that situation. The US in that sense is much more collectivist than we generally think, and one case for this in my opinion is the surprising energy that they can quickly gather to rally people behind a cause ,for example militarily. Americans are very quickly to mobilize and pursue quite abstract collective goals.

porknubbins 4y ago

I would argue Japan and Korea at least maintain a degree of collectivism- in areas such as extended family living arrangements, support for local business and agriculture, and (ostensible) income and educational equality etc, but its actually all window dressing when your economy is thoroughly modernized on a western model. The economy is life and death- the thing that tells young people you have to move to Tokyo and join the rat race. Though in Japan at least I have seen encouraging trends of people opting out.

JamesianP 4y ago

I've always thought Chaebols seemed like a kind of marriage between collectivism and capitalism. I certainly don't consider it American-style when it comes to capitalism. As for shopping malls and other hardcore evidence of "Americanism", from what I've read the US still leads the world in retail shopping space by an embarrassing amount if anything. As for K-pop, this is one I don't understand. How is it different from western boy/girl bands or for that matter J-pop, other than being export-oriented it seems.

detaro 4y ago
Why are Chaebols more collectivist than e.g like General Electric?
- JamesianP 4y ago
  Their success is a collective goal. They are created and maintained by the govt as well as supported by the public as a way of mainlining control over the economy versus foreign companies. The more collectivist countries and the more collectivist-oriented policies in mixed economies certainly do strive for the same things with the same tactics. So I obviously am not saying large US companies are devoid of collectivism or don't owe any success to it. But they are a smaller factor here. Personally I suspect giant US companies arise out of courtroom victories more than any other factor. I'm not sure where to categorize that exactly. Maybe Beurocratism. At least it has a kind of impartiality to it, though also tending to benefit the market leader the most in its own way.