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I'm not sure you have the correct definition of a low trust society. If the US was a low trust society due to it's gun ownership Mad Max would be more than a mo

I'm not sure you have the correct definition of a low trust society. If the US was a low trust society due to it's gun ownership Mad Max would be more than a movie. In fact, Mad Max is a perfect example of a low trust society. All but the most degenerate Americans believe murder is wrong... so I'm not sure what kind of point you're making about guns. That alone is a shared ethical value. An important one, too! America is very high trust. It still has something that resembles a democracy, private property rights, businesses, etc. All of this signal that Americans can have shared ethical values - a fundamental point of high(er) trust societies. None of these would be possible if people fundamentally didn't trust each other. Despite what the media portrays Americans as almost none of it is true.

hotpotamus 4y ago
Do people in low trust societies see murder as acceptable? That seems unlikely to me. I suppose one problem even with the discussion is that killing another human is sometimes acceptable; murder is by definition the unlawful killing of a person as defined by that society. Nevertheless, doesn't the US have the highest murder rate in the developed world? Again, it does not sound like something I'd associate with high trust. A couple questions occur to me as well - how does gun ownership correlate with high and low trust society (by your definition). And I'm sure this exists on a spectrum and societies will change over time, so which way would you think the US is trending?
- cb504 4y ago
  How you treat the "other" is the measure of a low trust society. Murder is wrong and not tolerated within the clan, but violence towards the "other" is ignored and in some cases encouraged. Yes, there are hate crimes in America but they make the news and promoted to the FBI. This helps build trust.
- Test0129 4y ago
  Gun ownership correlates to a desire to defend yourself from out-groups. You expect people to behave according to the set of ethics you and your countrymen follow. A gun is a tool to provide oneself a way to insure their own life. You can have a high trust society. That doesn't mean that crime doesn't happen, nor does it mean the (theoretically benevolent) police can respond in time to save you. High trust does not imply victimhood. A high trust society is generally cohesive and has a shared set of moral and ethical values that allow for kinship and constructive work. High trust societies with firearms are generally safe - as America is. Gun deaths have trended down dramatically since the 60s (source: FBI) and with all but a few unfortunate locations in the US you have a better chance of being struck by lightning than shot. Ignoring suicide, the US is a very safe place much to chagrin of the yellow journalists. This sounds exactly like a high trust society to me. If it was low trust, every street corner would be dangerous. Chicago, for example, is a microcosm of a low trust society. Most of Africa is low trust. Afghanistan is low trust. Clan-based warfare is a sign of low trust. China, for example, is a (somewhat) high trust society yet has incredibly restrictive firearms laws. > And I'm sure this exists on a spectrum and societies will change over time, so which way would you think the US is trending? According to the actual FBI data released in the last several years gun deaths continue to decline from record highs 60 years ago. The vast majority of murders are gang related (a cultural problem), and the vast, vast majority of remaining data is taken up by suicides. As far as I can tell not only is the US a high trust society in general (I can open a business anywhere, I can buy a home anywhere, I can generally expect someone to be kind to me), it's also safe despite it's gun ownership. The anti-gunners always seem to ignore cultural differences in countries. For example, comparing Sweden or Finland to the US. These are still culturally homogeneous. The US is a veritable melting pot of 10,000 different cultures. This has a dramatic effect that people avoid talking about because it is politically incorrect. In this sense the US can be viewed as a lower-tier of high trust due to the lack of cultural homogeneity. Though I would still argue on fundamentals the US itself is very high trust, albeit somewhat awkward and very self-deprecating. I think your issue trying to resolve high trust is stemming from the media portrayal of the US. As someone who spends every waking moment here, and many moments outside of metros, I just don't see what horrors the media reports. If it does exist, it's somewhere else (and I honestly can't be bothered to worry about it).
  - hotpotamus 4y ago
    > According to the actual FBI data released in the last several years gun deaths continue to decline from record highs 60 years ago. That isn't exactly my understanding, at least over the last couple years - didn't 2020 bring a sharp rise in homicides (along with gun ownership)? Perhaps I'm just a bit sensitive since I tend to hear gunshots at night every so often and a police officer just gunned a man down in his car for nothing more than eating a burger in my neighborhood just a few weeks ago. Last I heard he was still on life support. But overall I have to say that my experience of living in the US just feels like being trapped in a box with lurking predators everywhere. Everywhere you go, there's some scam or hidden fee (which doesn't really feel that different from a bribe now that I think about it) that someone is just waiting to spring on you. God forbid if you need some kind of healthcare - no one can tell you what anything will cost, but they will bill you something, probably a lot. I get that that might not meet the definition of low trust, but it doesn't feel like high trust either.
kylebyproxy 4y ago
> If the US was a low trust society due to it's gun ownership... I think you have the causality backward here > America is very high trust... We're as polarized as ever, virtually no one approves of our leadership, and everyone thinks corporations or "the media" or "the deep state" or some faceless billionaire is behind the scenes pulling the strings. So no, there's no trust in this country. You've confused trust with apathy and defeat.

hotpotamus 4y ago

Do people in low trust societies see murder as acceptable? That seems unlikely to me. I suppose one problem even with the discussion is that killing another human is sometimes acceptable; murder is by definition the unlawful killing of a person as defined by that society. Nevertheless, doesn't the US have the highest murder rate in the developed world? Again, it does not sound like something I'd associate with high trust. A couple questions occur to me as well - how does gun ownership correlate with high and low trust society (by your definition). And I'm sure this exists on a spectrum and societies will change over time, so which way would you think the US is trending?

cb504 4y ago
How you treat the "other" is the measure of a low trust society. Murder is wrong and not tolerated within the clan, but violence towards the "other" is ignored and in some cases encouraged. Yes, there are hate crimes in America but they make the news and promoted to the FBI. This helps build trust.
Test0129 4y ago
Gun ownership correlates to a desire to defend yourself from out-groups. You expect people to behave according to the set of ethics you and your countrymen follow. A gun is a tool to provide oneself a way to insure their own life. You can have a high trust society. That doesn't mean that crime doesn't happen, nor does it mean the (theoretically benevolent) police can respond in time to save you. High trust does not imply victimhood. A high trust society is generally cohesive and has a shared set of moral and ethical values that allow for kinship and constructive work. High trust societies with firearms are generally safe - as America is. Gun deaths have trended down dramatically since the 60s (source: FBI) and with all but a few unfortunate locations in the US you have a better chance of being struck by lightning than shot. Ignoring suicide, the US is a very safe place much to chagrin of the yellow journalists. This sounds exactly like a high trust society to me. If it was low trust, every street corner would be dangerous. Chicago, for example, is a microcosm of a low trust society. Most of Africa is low trust. Afghanistan is low trust. Clan-based warfare is a sign of low trust. China, for example, is a (somewhat) high trust society yet has incredibly restrictive firearms laws. > And I'm sure this exists on a spectrum and societies will change over time, so which way would you think the US is trending? According to the actual FBI data released in the last several years gun deaths continue to decline from record highs 60 years ago. The vast majority of murders are gang related (a cultural problem), and the vast, vast majority of remaining data is taken up by suicides. As far as I can tell not only is the US a high trust society in general (I can open a business anywhere, I can buy a home anywhere, I can generally expect someone to be kind to me), it's also safe despite it's gun ownership. The anti-gunners always seem to ignore cultural differences in countries. For example, comparing Sweden or Finland to the US. These are still culturally homogeneous. The US is a veritable melting pot of 10,000 different cultures. This has a dramatic effect that people avoid talking about because it is politically incorrect. In this sense the US can be viewed as a lower-tier of high trust due to the lack of cultural homogeneity. Though I would still argue on fundamentals the US itself is very high trust, albeit somewhat awkward and very self-deprecating. I think your issue trying to resolve high trust is stemming from the media portrayal of the US. As someone who spends every waking moment here, and many moments outside of metros, I just don't see what horrors the media reports. If it does exist, it's somewhere else (and I honestly can't be bothered to worry about it).
- hotpotamus 4y ago
  > According to the actual FBI data released in the last several years gun deaths continue to decline from record highs 60 years ago. That isn't exactly my understanding, at least over the last couple years - didn't 2020 bring a sharp rise in homicides (along with gun ownership)? Perhaps I'm just a bit sensitive since I tend to hear gunshots at night every so often and a police officer just gunned a man down in his car for nothing more than eating a burger in my neighborhood just a few weeks ago. Last I heard he was still on life support. But overall I have to say that my experience of living in the US just feels like being trapped in a box with lurking predators everywhere. Everywhere you go, there's some scam or hidden fee (which doesn't really feel that different from a bribe now that I think about it) that someone is just waiting to spring on you. God forbid if you need some kind of healthcare - no one can tell you what anything will cost, but they will bill you something, probably a lot. I get that that might not meet the definition of low trust, but it doesn't feel like high trust either.

kylebyproxy 4y ago

> If the US was a low trust society due to it's gun ownership... I think you have the causality backward here > America is very high trust... We're as polarized as ever, virtually no one approves of our leadership, and everyone thinks corporations or "the media" or "the deep state" or some faceless billionaire is behind the scenes pulling the strings. So no, there's no trust in this country. You've confused trust with apathy and defeat.