4 ms·

The musician Townes Van Zandt underwent ECT and the loss of his memory haunted him his whole (very tragic) life. It's well-known how deep of an impact that had

The musician Townes Van Zandt underwent ECT and the loss of his memory haunted him his whole (very tragic) life. It's well-known how deep of an impact that had on him, and not for the better. As if the often pleasant, often interesting, often terrifying yet short term and proven harmless side-effects of Ketamine can even compare to the ECT! I would like to see how _much_ better ECT is, given all the factors. Additionally, one can do quick, repeat treatments with ketamine. I'm sure doctors would caution repeatedly getting hooked up to an ECT machine.

operator-name 4y ago
A single data point may be a interesting, but strong evidence it does not make. Nor does speculating about a doctors caution without citations. Ketamine in recreational use has equally documented side effects, some quite severe. Extreme circumstances that have caused irreparable damage are rare, but not unheard of. There are also numerous other anecdotes from people that have undergone numerous session of ECT with minor side effects. I'm not for or against ECT or ketamine, I just find the language used and conclusions reached from so little evidence extremely dangerous.
- DontchaKnowit 4y ago
  What sort of side effects are we talking about? As far as I know, bladder damage is the only actual physical effect of ket
  - olliej 4y ago
    Falling over can do a lot of damage :D
DFHippie 4y ago
According to Wikipedia it was insulin shock therapy, not ECT, that cost Townes Van Zandt his memory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Townes_Van_Zandt#Early_life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Townes_Van_Zandt#Early_life I heard a Radio Lab episode in which a sufferer of chronic depression said that he hyperventilated before ECT to minimize memory effects.
- sibeliuss 4y ago
  Thank you for the correction!
olliej 4y ago
That was "Insulin Shock Therapy" which had no actual solid support - certainly nothing that would withstand modern scrutiny - and frequently included "improvement" in schizophrenic patients that were clearly docility caused by direct neurological damage. You also don't just get "hooked up to an ect machine" - it's well established that ECT as used historically was almost entirely aversion therapy - modern ECT does not ever occur on a conscious patient, and because of how it was used historically there are extremely strict controls on patient consent and patient awareness of what they are consenting to - all questionnaires, surveys, consents, etc are taken by a third party that is not part of the treatment.

operator-name 4y ago

A single data point may be a interesting, but strong evidence it does not make. Nor does speculating about a doctors caution without citations. Ketamine in recreational use has equally documented side effects, some quite severe. Extreme circumstances that have caused irreparable damage are rare, but not unheard of. There are also numerous other anecdotes from people that have undergone numerous session of ECT with minor side effects. I'm not for or against ECT or ketamine, I just find the language used and conclusions reached from so little evidence extremely dangerous.

DontchaKnowit 4y ago
What sort of side effects are we talking about? As far as I know, bladder damage is the only actual physical effect of ket
- olliej 4y ago
  Falling over can do a lot of damage :D

DFHippie 4y ago

According to Wikipedia it was insulin shock therapy, not ECT, that cost Townes Van Zandt his memory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Townes_Van_Zandt#Early_life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Townes_Van_Zandt#Early_life I heard a Radio Lab episode in which a sufferer of chronic depression said that he hyperventilated before ECT to minimize memory effects.

sibeliuss 4y ago
Thank you for the correction!

olliej 4y ago

That was "Insulin Shock Therapy" which had no actual solid support - certainly nothing that would withstand modern scrutiny - and frequently included "improvement" in schizophrenic patients that were clearly docility caused by direct neurological damage. You also don't just get "hooked up to an ect machine" - it's well established that ECT as used historically was almost entirely aversion therapy - modern ECT does not ever occur on a conscious patient, and because of how it was used historically there are extremely strict controls on patient consent and patient awareness of what they are consenting to - all questionnaires, surveys, consents, etc are taken by a third party that is not part of the treatment.