3 ms·

> But the doctors had already decided she was being "stabilized" by the anti-psychotic prescriptions they forced on her, so they just added this vitamin to thei

by chrsig 4y ago

> But the doctors had already decided she was being "stabilized" by the anti-psychotic prescriptions they forced on her, so they just added this vitamin to their cocktail of prescriptions. Outside of very specific circumstances during hospitalization, doctors can't actually force you to take any medication.

kortex 4y ago
Ehhhhhh depends a lot on the circumstances and the hospital/center. In theory, yeah, in practice, it's a lot harder for patients to refuse treatment, for one reason or another.
MichaelCollins 4y ago
I think "my friend's guardian" suggests this person was not fully emancipated for some reason. Doctor strongly suggests it to the legal guardian and the legal guardian requires it could be summed up as "the doctor forced it"
tcj_phx 4y ago
Most states have provisions for involuntary mental health treatment. Arizona's laws for forced mental health treatment are in ARS Title 36, Chapter 5: https://www.azleg.gov/arsDetail/?title=36 https://www.azleg.gov/arsDetail/?title=36 As soon as the doctors got their order for involuntary treatment in November 2015, they cornered my friend and injected her with a time-release version of haloperidol, then released her to her mother's house. A day and a half later her mom called the psychiatrists, who said to take my friend to a real ER. My friend told the real doctors at the real ER that she was NOT suicidal. She told me how the haloperidol had 'hit her like a truck', and she tried everything she could think of to counteract the agony: alcohol, cocaine, heroin, dextromethorphan (aka cough syrup), etc. All the anti-dopamine drugs are terrible. Some of the second-generation drugs that are forced on people are much worse than plain old haloperidol. The poor doctors are just implementing their training. Tragic. My observation is that agony-inducing drugs are not actually helpful for substance abuse.
- operator-name 4y ago
  That sounds like a horrible experience, and I hope you friend is being treated better now. To be charitable and more specific, If you are stable enough there's nothing technically stopping you from not taking prescribed medication and self medicating - as long as you remain stable enough to not warrant involuntary treatment. The obvious risk is if your prescribed medication (or a combination of prescribed and self prescribed medication) is making an impact, you could get worse. From this comment it sounds like there's a lot you're leaving out of this story, but I'd like like be caucious of making generalising statements from specific personally related scenarios.
  - tcj_phx 4y ago
    > From this comment it sounds like there's a lot you're leaving out of this story There's more than can be covered in a little comment. I have the psychiatrists' September 2015 affidavits, filed in support of their petition for involuntary treatment. They say, essentially, "patient expects us to believe she was psychotic because she was drinking 2 bottles of liquor a day, and using cocaine. We know this is not the case because we previously got her 'stabilized' in 2008 and 2010 on haloperidol. She obviously does not appreciate that she is broken and requires anti-psychotics for the rest of her life." My videos from August 2015 prove that she was actually fine before she ran out of alcohol, and that whatever deterioration the doctors think they're treating is entirely caused by palliative psychiatric drugs.
- chrsig 4y ago
  I'm sorry your friend went through all of that. I've had friends and immediate family in similar situations. It's a genuinely impossible situation to navigate. Sometimes these situations turn out tragically because the patient was involuntarily given drugs, sometimes they turn out tragically because the patient wasn't. I'm surprised they went with a time release injection -- from the sounds of it, when you say "time release" you mean on the order of 30-90 days, not "12 hours". I'd have expected them to just work on stabilization and then moving to an outpatient program. I'm very surprised they'd have used it without any history of it being effective. In a more recent tale with a family member undergoing an involuntary stay, I'd have wished they'd used a longer term haloperidol injection. There's not a one size fits all solution, and it's hard to balance legislation around personal freedoms vs recognizing when the patient is a harm to themselves/others, or even capable of making informed rationale decisions. > My observation is that agony-inducing drugs are not actually helpful for substance abuse. Haloperidol isn't for substance abuse, so I wouldn't expect it to perform well at it.
heavyset_go 4y ago
Florida has laws on the books that let anyone go to a judge to get an order for forced treatment of someone else for mental illness or addiction. With the Marchman Act, non-compliance with treatment can have legal consequences, as well. From here[1]: > What happens if the respondent isn’t compliant with the treatment order? > It’s up to the judge but the idea is that non-compliance with a court order equates to contempt of court and is punishable by jail time. This is where the “teeth” or consequences are introduced for someone refusing to comply with the treatment plan. However, we have found that many counties do not enforce treatment orders with jail time. When the option is to be compliant with treatment or be held in contempt of court, that sounds like force. [1] https://marchmanactflorida.com/faq/ https://marchmanactflorida.com/faq/

by chrsig 4y ago

kortex 4y ago

Ehhhhhh depends a lot on the circumstances and the hospital/center. In theory, yeah, in practice, it's a lot harder for patients to refuse treatment, for one reason or another.

MichaelCollins 4y ago

I think "my friend's guardian" suggests this person was not fully emancipated for some reason. Doctor strongly suggests it to the legal guardian and the legal guardian requires it could be summed up as "the doctor forced it"

tcj_phx 4y ago

Most states have provisions for involuntary mental health treatment. Arizona's laws for forced mental health treatment are in ARS Title 36, Chapter 5: https://www.azleg.gov/arsDetail/?title=36 https://www.azleg.gov/arsDetail/?title=36 As soon as the doctors got their order for involuntary treatment in November 2015, they cornered my friend and injected her with a time-release version of haloperidol, then released her to her mother's house. A day and a half later her mom called the psychiatrists, who said to take my friend to a real ER. My friend told the real doctors at the real ER that she was NOT suicidal. She told me how the haloperidol had 'hit her like a truck', and she tried everything she could think of to counteract the agony: alcohol, cocaine, heroin, dextromethorphan (aka cough syrup), etc. All the anti-dopamine drugs are terrible. Some of the second-generation drugs that are forced on people are much worse than plain old haloperidol. The poor doctors are just implementing their training. Tragic. My observation is that agony-inducing drugs are not actually helpful for substance abuse.

operator-name 4y ago
That sounds like a horrible experience, and I hope you friend is being treated better now. To be charitable and more specific, If you are stable enough there's nothing technically stopping you from not taking prescribed medication and self medicating - as long as you remain stable enough to not warrant involuntary treatment. The obvious risk is if your prescribed medication (or a combination of prescribed and self prescribed medication) is making an impact, you could get worse. From this comment it sounds like there's a lot you're leaving out of this story, but I'd like like be caucious of making generalising statements from specific personally related scenarios.
- tcj_phx 4y ago
  > From this comment it sounds like there's a lot you're leaving out of this story There's more than can be covered in a little comment. I have the psychiatrists' September 2015 affidavits, filed in support of their petition for involuntary treatment. They say, essentially, "patient expects us to believe she was psychotic because she was drinking 2 bottles of liquor a day, and using cocaine. We know this is not the case because we previously got her 'stabilized' in 2008 and 2010 on haloperidol. She obviously does not appreciate that she is broken and requires anti-psychotics for the rest of her life." My videos from August 2015 prove that she was actually fine before she ran out of alcohol, and that whatever deterioration the doctors think they're treating is entirely caused by palliative psychiatric drugs.
chrsig 4y ago
I'm sorry your friend went through all of that. I've had friends and immediate family in similar situations. It's a genuinely impossible situation to navigate. Sometimes these situations turn out tragically because the patient was involuntarily given drugs, sometimes they turn out tragically because the patient wasn't. I'm surprised they went with a time release injection -- from the sounds of it, when you say "time release" you mean on the order of 30-90 days, not "12 hours". I'd have expected them to just work on stabilization and then moving to an outpatient program. I'm very surprised they'd have used it without any history of it being effective. In a more recent tale with a family member undergoing an involuntary stay, I'd have wished they'd used a longer term haloperidol injection. There's not a one size fits all solution, and it's hard to balance legislation around personal freedoms vs recognizing when the patient is a harm to themselves/others, or even capable of making informed rationale decisions. > My observation is that agony-inducing drugs are not actually helpful for substance abuse. Haloperidol isn't for substance abuse, so I wouldn't expect it to perform well at it.

heavyset_go 4y ago

Florida has laws on the books that let anyone go to a judge to get an order for forced treatment of someone else for mental illness or addiction. With the Marchman Act, non-compliance with treatment can have legal consequences, as well. From here[1]: > What happens if the respondent isn’t compliant with the treatment order? > It’s up to the judge but the idea is that non-compliance with a court order equates to contempt of court and is punishable by jail time. This is where the “teeth” or consequences are introduced for someone refusing to comply with the treatment plan. However, we have found that many counties do not enforce treatment orders with jail time. When the option is to be compliant with treatment or be held in contempt of court, that sounds like force. [1] https://marchmanactflorida.com/faq/ https://marchmanactflorida.com/faq/