5 ms·

aren't the side effects of ECT quite severe though? "loss of creativity, drive and energy. difficulty concentrating. loss of emotional responses. difficulty lea

aren't the side effects of ECT quite severe though? "loss of creativity, drive and energy. difficulty concentrating. loss of emotional responses. difficulty learning new information."

pyuser583 4y ago
Those are also the symptoms of depression.
thrown_22 4y ago
Those are also the side effects of severe depression so you're not missing out on much.
andrewflnr 4y ago
If you take away my creativity and ability to learn, you may as well just kill me. That sounds like a recipe for depression in itself.
- operator-name 4y ago
  You're depressed, which has already destroyed your creativity and ability to learn. Nothing has worked. Your option is to ECT, which may help, or have adverse side effects. Would you try it? If you've not got much to lose, why not? It's not as if suicide is suddenly no longer an option afterwards.
  - generalizations 4y ago
    > which has already destroyed your creativity and ability to learn Don't think that's necessarily the case.
    - operator-name 4y ago
      Loss of focus and difficulty retaining new information are common symptoms for major depressive episodes.
  - idlehand 4y ago
    There are other options than ECT which may have fewer side effects.
  - andrewflnr 4y ago
    Possibly, as an absolute last resort. Not before. It's very unlikely, and at that point it being "more effective" than ketamine is barely germane, since I'm scraping the bottom of the barrel anyway.
    - iSnow 4y ago
      But that's what treatment-resistant depression is: either a life in misery, suicide or ECT/Ket as a hail-Mary maneuver. We are not talking about acute depression or people in midlife-crisis.
tru3_power 4y ago
So what are the upsides
- aetherson 4y ago
  "Not feeling incredibly depressed."
  - oldgradstudent 4y ago
    Or, more accurately, not reporting to the researchers that you're feeling incredibly depressed.
    - operator-name 4y ago
      The same skepticism can be applied to any study, depression treatment or otherwise. Practically, self reporting is highly effective and well correlated with effects, especially for depression.
      - oldgradstudent 4y ago
        Of course. It's just that sometimes, the easiest and least confrontational way to stop a treatment with serious side effects is to claim that the treatment is no longer needed. Studies should find ways to control for such problems.
        elevaet 4y ago
        "The floggings will continue until morale improves!"
    - pyuser583 4y ago
      Severe depression has objective symptoms: severe sleep disturbances, psychotic like symptoms.
      - 4y ago
operator-name 4y ago
Do you have a citation for that list, preferably that also has includes how common each side effect it?
- warrenmiller 4y ago
  https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/drugs-and-treatments/electroconvulsive-therapy-ect/side-effects-of-ect/ https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/drugs-and-treatm...
syockit 4y ago
Hmm, that is starting to sound like nerve stapling.
astura 4y ago
You already have all of those symptoms (and more!) if you have severe treatment resistant depression.
xkbarkar 4y ago
I only know one ECT patient personally but the side effects were horrible enough for me to wonder why it is even legal. The brutality of the treatment and lack of after treatment is astounding. It's been 12 years since her ECT for post partum depression and she still has memory losses and a completely changed personality (agression is one).

aren't the side effects of ECT quite severe though? "loss of creativity, drive and energy. difficulty concentrating. loss of emotional responses. difficulty learning new information."

pyuser583 4y ago

Those are also the symptoms of depression.

thrown_22 4y ago

Those are also the side effects of severe depression so you're not missing out on much.

andrewflnr 4y ago

If you take away my creativity and ability to learn, you may as well just kill me. That sounds like a recipe for depression in itself.

operator-name 4y ago
You're depressed, which has already destroyed your creativity and ability to learn. Nothing has worked. Your option is to ECT, which may help, or have adverse side effects. Would you try it? If you've not got much to lose, why not? It's not as if suicide is suddenly no longer an option afterwards.
- generalizations 4y ago
  > which has already destroyed your creativity and ability to learn Don't think that's necessarily the case.
  - operator-name 4y ago
    Loss of focus and difficulty retaining new information are common symptoms for major depressive episodes.
- idlehand 4y ago
  There are other options than ECT which may have fewer side effects.
- andrewflnr 4y ago
  Possibly, as an absolute last resort. Not before. It's very unlikely, and at that point it being "more effective" than ketamine is barely germane, since I'm scraping the bottom of the barrel anyway.
  - iSnow 4y ago
    But that's what treatment-resistant depression is: either a life in misery, suicide or ECT/Ket as a hail-Mary maneuver. We are not talking about acute depression or people in midlife-crisis.

tru3_power 4y ago

So what are the upsides

aetherson 4y ago
"Not feeling incredibly depressed."
- oldgradstudent 4y ago
  Or, more accurately, not reporting to the researchers that you're feeling incredibly depressed.
  - operator-name 4y ago
    The same skepticism can be applied to any study, depression treatment or otherwise. Practically, self reporting is highly effective and well correlated with effects, especially for depression.
    - oldgradstudent 4y ago
      Of course. It's just that sometimes, the easiest and least confrontational way to stop a treatment with serious side effects is to claim that the treatment is no longer needed. Studies should find ways to control for such problems.
      - elevaet 4y ago
        "The floggings will continue until morale improves!"
  - pyuser583 4y ago
    Severe depression has objective symptoms: severe sleep disturbances, psychotic like symptoms.
    - 4y ago

operator-name 4y ago

Do you have a citation for that list, preferably that also has includes how common each side effect it?

warrenmiller 4y ago
https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/drugs-and-treatments/electroconvulsive-therapy-ect/side-effects-of-ect/ https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/drugs-and-treatm...

syockit 4y ago

Hmm, that is starting to sound like nerve stapling.

astura 4y ago

You already have all of those symptoms (and more!) if you have severe treatment resistant depression.

xkbarkar 4y ago

I only know one ECT patient personally but the side effects were horrible enough for me to wonder why it is even legal. The brutality of the treatment and lack of after treatment is astounding. It's been 12 years since her ECT for post partum depression and she still has memory losses and a completely changed personality (agression is one).