3 ms·

I believe it's a competitive perspective. We've been told that "Western" norms-- particularly individual rights, democracy, and market economics-- are sacred a

by hakfoo 4y ago

I believe it's a competitive perspective. We've been told that "Western" norms-- particularly individual rights, democracy, and market economics-- are sacred and superior. Not only are they expected to win, they must win at any cost. Before 1991, we had the USSR as the strawman counterexample. We could point at them and say "well, they got people into space, became a superpower in 40 years... but the people had to wait eight years for a car." Clearly it's the lack of Western Style Freedom (tm). China has proven that you can deliver both politically (they're clearly a significant global power) and economically (rapidly rising standards of living and enough exports to become the world's factory). It starts to ask the question: are our holy values an end in and of themselves, or just a means to deliver economic and social development? We can't possibly consider that alternative, so we've got to smear every step of progress they make. "But the Falun Gong!" "But the Uiguyhrs!" "But Tibet!" In the end, the results stand for themselves. I suppose the real challenge is the next generation or two-- meeting and lapping Western economic performance, with a population of 1.4 billion, in a period where a lot of the easy natural resources are claimed, may well be a challenge, for any system.

Nullabillity 4y ago
> We've been told that "Western" norms-- particularly individual rights, democracy, and market economics Those three are... not the same thing, and it's dangerous to lump them together. In fact, market economics are anti-democratic (replaces 1 person = 1 vote with $1 = 1 vote) and anti-human rights (see: wage slavery).
- hakfoo 4y ago
  Democracy and individual rights are, to an extent, the frosting wrapped around the real focus-- private property rights and private enterprise. The last 75 years of foreign policy show that it's easier to coexist with the West as a tyranny that won't be an impediment to business, than a democracy that comes to any other conclusions. But at the same time, they'll never say outright "we couped/invaded to make a world safe for Coca-Cola/United Fruit/Disney" when they can make some blather about democracy or rights.
eli_gottlieb 4y ago
>China has proven that you can deliver both politically (they're clearly a significant global power) and economically (rapidly rising standards of living and enough exports to become the world's factory). And how's that doing under Xi Jinping, specifically, especially after he started his Zero COVID policies of putting cities of tens of millions under continuous lockdown?
matthewdgreen 4y ago
>China has proven that you can deliver both politically (they're clearly a significant global power) and economically What China proved that is that an authoritarian regime can smother economic progress for decades, and then can stop making those mistakes for a period. China's per-capita GDP is still only about 1/3 of Korea's and 1/4 of Japan's, and that difference is largely due to past failures by its governing elite. The question is whether China's system will be able to optimize for similar mistake-free periods in the future or if it will experience similar failure modes.

by hakfoo 4y ago

Nullabillity 4y ago

> We've been told that "Western" norms-- particularly individual rights, democracy, and market economics Those three are... not the same thing, and it's dangerous to lump them together. In fact, market economics are anti-democratic (replaces 1 person = 1 vote with $1 = 1 vote) and anti-human rights (see: wage slavery).

hakfoo 4y ago
Democracy and individual rights are, to an extent, the frosting wrapped around the real focus-- private property rights and private enterprise. The last 75 years of foreign policy show that it's easier to coexist with the West as a tyranny that won't be an impediment to business, than a democracy that comes to any other conclusions. But at the same time, they'll never say outright "we couped/invaded to make a world safe for Coca-Cola/United Fruit/Disney" when they can make some blather about democracy or rights.

eli_gottlieb 4y ago

>China has proven that you can deliver both politically (they're clearly a significant global power) and economically (rapidly rising standards of living and enough exports to become the world's factory). And how's that doing under Xi Jinping, specifically, especially after he started his Zero COVID policies of putting cities of tens of millions under continuous lockdown?

matthewdgreen 4y ago

>China has proven that you can deliver both politically (they're clearly a significant global power) and economically What China proved that is that an authoritarian regime can smother economic progress for decades, and then can stop making those mistakes for a period. China's per-capita GDP is still only about 1/3 of Korea's and 1/4 of Japan's, and that difference is largely due to past failures by its governing elite. The question is whether China's system will be able to optimize for similar mistake-free periods in the future or if it will experience similar failure modes.