4 ms·

The main take away from this is that much like the VAX-11/780, all of the processors we run Linux on today have embedded controllers that run first. In history

The main take away from this is that much like the VAX-11/780, all of the processors we run Linux on today have embedded controllers that run first. In history we see "The VAX-11/780 included a subordinate stand-alone LSI-11 computer that performed microcode load, booting, and diagnostic functions for the parent computer."[1] In the present, there are many layers of embedded controllers doing essentially the same thing the LSI-11 did for the VAX. In both cases, the main OS has little to no control over those controllers. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VAX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VAX

marcodiego 4y ago
Case in point: AFAIK, some Raptor Computing machines have an ASpeed processor which is powered on first. It then loads the bootROM from a removable flash chip on the motherboard, the bootROM initializes the rest of the hardware and loads BMC from another flash chip on the motherboard. The BMC does whatever hardware initialization still must be done and only then it runs the bootloader. The bootloader (petitboot, I think) scan the drives for bootable media and shows a menu for the user to choose what to boot. The ASpeed and the POWER computers are somewhat independent after that point. If I had enough money, I'd get one of those machines just for the peculiarities of its hardware.
- GoOnThenDoTell 4y ago
  a BMC starting up first is standard for server boards
  - formerly_proven 4y ago
    In fact it starts so first that it started long before you even press the power button.
    - rzzzt 4y ago
      Same with the SMC (or an embedded controller by any other name) on laptops.
hinkley 4y ago
Oxide Computers has been making a lot of column inches out of pointing out that those controllers run closed source software so we are losing control of our machines. Linux is running in a simulation at this point, and we should be doing something to fix that.
- soneil 4y ago
  I honestly think they're the most interesting thing going on in tech at the moment - they're actually creating tech instead of just using it to schedule taxis. I wish I had an ounce of the talent they're looking for, because they're doing the things I love reading about, not the things I end up doing.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  Linux is slowly becoming irrelevant. Yes it owns the cloud space, UNIX has won there. However it is precisely the cloud that that is making the OS irrelevant by having containers, language runtimes and type 1 hypervisors, all OS agnostic. While on the embedded space we are seeing adoption of FOSS OSes with various levels of POSIX compatibility with MIT/BSD/Apache licenses, more appealing to OEMs.
lawrenceyan 4y ago
It seems like if you really wanted control, you would try to go for these low level layers.
ggm 4y ago
A small anecdote. We needed to reboot our 11/780. We couldn't find the boot floppy for the LSI-11. An operator found one folded up in a drawer. We un-folded it, tried to "iron out" the creases with our hands, put it in.. the vax booted. TL;DR those 8" floppies were really well designed. Like DECTAPE, there was a lot of block repeats. DECTAPE (pdp11 and Dec-10 era) was good. The 11/750s used a small front console tape cassette of some sort which I never liked. I think by that stage the preboot LSI-11 had been miniaturised into something on a board in the main chassis. on the 11/780 it was literally a wart on the inside of one of the front doors, down low with the floppy slot pointing upwards.
- ratsmack 4y ago
  Just a little side note... my company bought a VAX 11/780, serial number 13, which was the 3rd one DEC shipped (DEC kept the first 10 in house).
  - ggm 4y ago
    I think the ones I worked on were far later in the series. Monash university (where I didn't work) had 11/780s with very unusual memory boards: they had de-soldered the chips and replaced them with bigger ones, with one leg bent "up" like a cockroach waving hello. These were tied to spare lines on the backplane somehow, to make the machine have double the address space because of "one extra bit" -I suspect they were getting round high cost memory boards from the original source.
DonHopkins 4y ago
"If you're not playing with 36 bits, you're not playing with a full DEC!" -DIGEX (Doug Humphrey), KA10 owner, Pro-PDPer and Anti-VAXer, taunting the 32 bit VAX weenies at DECUS.
- Suzuran 4y ago
  BLISS is ignorance!
  - DonHopkins 4y ago
    Get a CLU! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLU_(programming_language) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLU_(programming_language)
    - Suzuran 4y ago
      I actually have it, but I haven't had the chance to play with it yet. I still have most of a moby to repair.
froh 4y ago
yup. the intel Management Engine is a x586 cpu running minix. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine#Design https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine#Design

marcodiego 4y ago

Case in point: AFAIK, some Raptor Computing machines have an ASpeed processor which is powered on first. It then loads the bootROM from a removable flash chip on the motherboard, the bootROM initializes the rest of the hardware and loads BMC from another flash chip on the motherboard. The BMC does whatever hardware initialization still must be done and only then it runs the bootloader. The bootloader (petitboot, I think) scan the drives for bootable media and shows a menu for the user to choose what to boot. The ASpeed and the POWER computers are somewhat independent after that point. If I had enough money, I'd get one of those machines just for the peculiarities of its hardware.

GoOnThenDoTell 4y ago
a BMC starting up first is standard for server boards
- formerly_proven 4y ago
  In fact it starts so first that it started long before you even press the power button.
  - rzzzt 4y ago
    Same with the SMC (or an embedded controller by any other name) on laptops.

hinkley 4y ago

Oxide Computers has been making a lot of column inches out of pointing out that those controllers run closed source software so we are losing control of our machines. Linux is running in a simulation at this point, and we should be doing something to fix that.

soneil 4y ago
I honestly think they're the most interesting thing going on in tech at the moment - they're actually creating tech instead of just using it to schedule taxis. I wish I had an ounce of the talent they're looking for, because they're doing the things I love reading about, not the things I end up doing.
pjmlp 4y ago
Linux is slowly becoming irrelevant. Yes it owns the cloud space, UNIX has won there. However it is precisely the cloud that that is making the OS irrelevant by having containers, language runtimes and type 1 hypervisors, all OS agnostic. While on the embedded space we are seeing adoption of FOSS OSes with various levels of POSIX compatibility with MIT/BSD/Apache licenses, more appealing to OEMs.

lawrenceyan 4y ago

It seems like if you really wanted control, you would try to go for these low level layers.

ggm 4y ago

A small anecdote. We needed to reboot our 11/780. We couldn't find the boot floppy for the LSI-11. An operator found one folded up in a drawer. We un-folded it, tried to "iron out" the creases with our hands, put it in.. the vax booted. TL;DR those 8" floppies were really well designed. Like DECTAPE, there was a lot of block repeats. DECTAPE (pdp11 and Dec-10 era) was good. The 11/750s used a small front console tape cassette of some sort which I never liked. I think by that stage the preboot LSI-11 had been miniaturised into something on a board in the main chassis. on the 11/780 it was literally a wart on the inside of one of the front doors, down low with the floppy slot pointing upwards.

ratsmack 4y ago
Just a little side note... my company bought a VAX 11/780, serial number 13, which was the 3rd one DEC shipped (DEC kept the first 10 in house).
- ggm 4y ago
  I think the ones I worked on were far later in the series. Monash university (where I didn't work) had 11/780s with very unusual memory boards: they had de-soldered the chips and replaced them with bigger ones, with one leg bent "up" like a cockroach waving hello. These were tied to spare lines on the backplane somehow, to make the machine have double the address space because of "one extra bit" -I suspect they were getting round high cost memory boards from the original source.

DonHopkins 4y ago

"If you're not playing with 36 bits, you're not playing with a full DEC!" -DIGEX (Doug Humphrey), KA10 owner, Pro-PDPer and Anti-VAXer, taunting the 32 bit VAX weenies at DECUS.

Suzuran 4y ago
BLISS is ignorance!
- DonHopkins 4y ago
  Get a CLU! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLU_(programming_language) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLU_(programming_language)
  - Suzuran 4y ago
    I actually have it, but I haven't had the chance to play with it yet. I still have most of a moby to repair.

froh 4y ago

yup. the intel Management Engine is a x586 cpu running minix. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine#Design https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine#Design