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The experience report on Scala I find pretty cathartic. It really is absolutely ridiculous the fetishization of extremely complex FP and type-level hacking that

The experience report on Scala I find pretty cathartic. It really is absolutely ridiculous the fetishization of extremely complex FP and type-level hacking that goes on in the ecosystem, to the point where, in the case of the author's hello world web server snippet, it's just so complex and laden with concepts you need to know that are unrelated to the problem you're trying to solve it could be mistaken for a parody or exaggeration, but it's actually the library recommended most often to beginners sadly.

losvedir 4y ago
It's a shame, too, because until that point (when I was still just following the "getting started" docs and doing the first half of the app, which loads a CSV and parses it and stuff), I was actually really enjoying it! The type-magic style of development is so different from what I'm used to, I have periodic crises of conscience where I wonder if I've been doing programming wrong all these years, or if it's an example of a community barking up the wrong tree. This thinking is also what prompts me to look into APL/J/K every so often. The last time I really tried to get into hardcore FP programming was several years ago with Haskell, but even then I don't recall Yesod (the web framework I tried out, akin to http4s here) being quite so overwhelming.
- chowells 4y ago
  And Yesod is one of the worst options in Haskell, at least as far as making me wonder why it's doing so much magic. It's very much trying to build a fully integrated framework instead of being composable Haskell. (To be fair, the underlying parts written to implement it are composable Haskell, and re-used by a lot of other web server projects.)
  - bradrn 4y ago
    I think ‘worst’ is very subjective here. It certainly does aim to be an all-encompassing ‘framework’ — but this is hardly unusual amongst web libraries (not just for Haskell!), and I feel Yesod gets the job done pretty well. Of course, Haskell has many alternatives if you don’t like Yesod: amongst other libraries, there’s Servant [0], snap [1], scotty [2], and the lower-level wai [3] and warp [4] if you feel the need for that kind of control. [0] https://hackage.haskell.org/package/servant https://hackage.haskell.org/package/servant [1] https://hackage.haskell.org/package/snap https://hackage.haskell.org/package/snap [2] https://hackage.haskell.org/package/scotty https://hackage.haskell.org/package/scotty [3] https://hackage.haskell.org/package/wai https://hackage.haskell.org/package/wai [4] https://hackage.haskell.org/package/warp https://hackage.haskell.org/package/warp
- hoosieree 4y ago
  I dove into the "type driven development" style with Elm (and a little Haskell) a few years back. In my opinion the pure functional style was more important than the type system. Maybe I just didn't try hard enough to think in terms of types, who knows. But I have to admit - not having to worry about run-time errors is quite nice. Shortly after Elm, I discovered the array languages via J, and felt like I finally found a style of programming that fit my brain properly. Immutable by default, rank-polymorphic, and extremely powerful. Terseness is a feature - when you can write the same program in 1/100 of the code (not an exaggeration), you can explore alternative approaches quickly and find bugs more easily. On the other hand, there's no compiler or fancy type system to find bugs for you, so terseness is also kind of necessary. Today I'd recommend array language newbies to try BQN or K first. BQN has some features that other array languages surprisingly lack (closures, modules), and only a few idiosyncratic design choices (unlike J which is very weird). K is pragmatic (it has dictionaries and tables!) and is ascii-based, but it has an almost Forth-like minimalism. For someone used to 'import xyz' style programming it's a jarring transition.
- KingOfCoders 4y ago
  And from founding a startup on Scala (Lift + Play), grow over some years and sell, I most dread compiler errors with the type magic. If something doesn't compile because of types, the error messages (at least some years back) were so confusing, it took quite some time to fix problems.
- valenterry 4y ago
  The http4s library was a bad choice in your case and it's at least partly their fault. They should really make it clear from the very beginning that you MUST understand certain PFP concepts and datatypes to effectively use the library. It is a NOT a library that you should start out with when you learn Scala, unless you have a mentor. I think for you, cask was the right choice and it's good that you found it.
- phibz 4y ago
  > I have periodic crises of conscience where I wonder if I've been doing programming wrong all these years, or if it's an example of a community barking up the wrong tree. When I first learned of FP about 20 years ago I thought it was a terrible idea. But I've convinced myself I have been proven wrong time and time again. I still think sometime it's complexity for its own sake. Eg. why is it so hard to define a monad? But I enjoyed parts of Scala 2 and later Rust. There are good ideas in FP that lead to programs that are easier to reason about and manage complexity. Languages are borrowing these good ideas and I'm happier for it, algebraic data types, pattern matching and destructuring, result/either, immutability, etc
- shirogane86x 4y ago
  as someone who did (and still does) a lot of Haskell, and actually loves it, seeing http4s reminded me less of Yesod and more of Servant: really high flexibility, advanced type level magic, and a fairly steep learning curve - especially so if you're not accustomed to advanced typed functional programming.
karmakaze 4y ago
This has been my experience as well, both individually and on a team. Everyone says it's fine as long as you show restraint and stay within bounds you collectively find comfortable/manageable. In practice, we all reach a point of understanding/comfort that doesn't stay with you on reading later, even by the author.
kenhwang 4y ago
The Scala 3 requirement really does cripple the choices available. The Scala 3 transition does feel a bit like the Python 3 transition where major libraries and frameworks are really dragging their feet on transitioning because of the high level of effort for very little obvious improvement. Scala 2 is still getting regular updates so there's no rush to use 3 just yet, I'd recommend picking the framework first and using the Scala version they support. That makes the development experience much better with access to much easier to use frameworks like play or finatra.
- vvillena 4y ago
  In the long term it will be an improvement. The one thing dragging adoption down is the removal of the old macro system, which depended completely on the implementation details of the old compiler. That said, I agree that Scala 2 is still very much supported, so there's nothing wrong with picking it.
solidninja 4y ago
I do wonder where the recommendation to use http4s for beginners came from. http4s is a very capable library (and if you care much about composition it is excellent), but I wouldn't describe the documentation as beginner friendly. A slightly better starting point for scala 3 + type-safe server building is tapir e.g. https://github.com/softwaremill/tapir/blob/master/examples3/src/main/scala/sttp/tapir/examples3/ErrorUnionTypesHttp4sServer.scala https://github.com/softwaremill/tapir/blob/master/examples3/... . With that, you get a declarative definition of your endpoints (+ error types, auth, etc.) that you can use for both servers and clients, which comes very handy when writing integration tests of course. > absolutely ridiculous the fetishization of extremely complex FP and type-level hacking that goes on in the ecosystem An alternative way to look at it is that there is a lot of essential domain complexity that gets encoded via the type system to let the compiler do the hard work. That "extremely complex FP" does not arrive out of nowhere - I really recommend at least skimming through the slides from rossabaker, the http4s designer, that motivate where the core type signature comes from https://rossabaker.github.io/boston-http4s/#2 https://rossabaker.github.io/boston-http4s/#2 I suppose one of the "features" that I like about the (typelevel) community is that the approach of "worse is better" is not taken, and a lot of effort is expended to make things correct, modular and orthogonal. This has the drawback of increased upfront complexity, that anecdotally pays off the moment your compiler does not error and the program runs as intended.
- klabb3 4y ago
  > http4s is a very capable library (and if you care much about composition it is excellent), but I wouldn't describe the documentation as beginner friendly. A slightly better starting point for scala 3 + type-safe server building is tapir I am not a scala user but this sounds like a serious violation of composability (ironically), for something so ubiquitous as http. I don't really mind advanced features being available for power users, or later optimizations, but I really dislike being forced to make a mutually exclusive decision between simple and performant, early in the project lifecycle. I think Rust unfortunately often falls in this category as well with async and multiple http libraries, and even the inofficial doctrine of deferring ownership decisions for later. In Go there's basically one way to do things, and the few more advanced things you can do can be opted into later. I assume this is a quality inherited from C, and it's extremely pragmatic and creates a composable ecosystem.
vvillena 4y ago
I agree with the sentiment that the more FP-heavy parts of the Scala ecosystem are not suited to hello-world code _at all_. In this particular case, http4s is at its core a low-level library. The author was right to go for Play first. But it turns out there's an alrernative. Tapir is emerging as that "pure FP, but approachable" HTTP framework. It allows developers to work at a higher level, turning the HTTP backend into an implementation detail. Simply define the application using Tapir, then choose the better backend for the use case.

losvedir 4y ago

It's a shame, too, because until that point (when I was still just following the "getting started" docs and doing the first half of the app, which loads a CSV and parses it and stuff), I was actually really enjoying it! The type-magic style of development is so different from what I'm used to, I have periodic crises of conscience where I wonder if I've been doing programming wrong all these years, or if it's an example of a community barking up the wrong tree. This thinking is also what prompts me to look into APL/J/K every so often. The last time I really tried to get into hardcore FP programming was several years ago with Haskell, but even then I don't recall Yesod (the web framework I tried out, akin to http4s here) being quite so overwhelming.

chowells 4y ago
And Yesod is one of the worst options in Haskell, at least as far as making me wonder why it's doing so much magic. It's very much trying to build a fully integrated framework instead of being composable Haskell. (To be fair, the underlying parts written to implement it are composable Haskell, and re-used by a lot of other web server projects.)
- bradrn 4y ago
  I think ‘worst’ is very subjective here. It certainly does aim to be an all-encompassing ‘framework’ — but this is hardly unusual amongst web libraries (not just for Haskell!), and I feel Yesod gets the job done pretty well. Of course, Haskell has many alternatives if you don’t like Yesod: amongst other libraries, there’s Servant [0], snap [1], scotty [2], and the lower-level wai [3] and warp [4] if you feel the need for that kind of control. [0] https://hackage.haskell.org/package/servant https://hackage.haskell.org/package/servant [1] https://hackage.haskell.org/package/snap https://hackage.haskell.org/package/snap [2] https://hackage.haskell.org/package/scotty https://hackage.haskell.org/package/scotty [3] https://hackage.haskell.org/package/wai https://hackage.haskell.org/package/wai [4] https://hackage.haskell.org/package/warp https://hackage.haskell.org/package/warp
hoosieree 4y ago
I dove into the "type driven development" style with Elm (and a little Haskell) a few years back. In my opinion the pure functional style was more important than the type system. Maybe I just didn't try hard enough to think in terms of types, who knows. But I have to admit - not having to worry about run-time errors is quite nice. Shortly after Elm, I discovered the array languages via J, and felt like I finally found a style of programming that fit my brain properly. Immutable by default, rank-polymorphic, and extremely powerful. Terseness is a feature - when you can write the same program in 1/100 of the code (not an exaggeration), you can explore alternative approaches quickly and find bugs more easily. On the other hand, there's no compiler or fancy type system to find bugs for you, so terseness is also kind of necessary. Today I'd recommend array language newbies to try BQN or K first. BQN has some features that other array languages surprisingly lack (closures, modules), and only a few idiosyncratic design choices (unlike J which is very weird). K is pragmatic (it has dictionaries and tables!) and is ascii-based, but it has an almost Forth-like minimalism. For someone used to 'import xyz' style programming it's a jarring transition.
KingOfCoders 4y ago
And from founding a startup on Scala (Lift + Play), grow over some years and sell, I most dread compiler errors with the type magic. If something doesn't compile because of types, the error messages (at least some years back) were so confusing, it took quite some time to fix problems.
valenterry 4y ago
The http4s library was a bad choice in your case and it's at least partly their fault. They should really make it clear from the very beginning that you MUST understand certain PFP concepts and datatypes to effectively use the library. It is a NOT a library that you should start out with when you learn Scala, unless you have a mentor. I think for you, cask was the right choice and it's good that you found it.
phibz 4y ago
> I have periodic crises of conscience where I wonder if I've been doing programming wrong all these years, or if it's an example of a community barking up the wrong tree. When I first learned of FP about 20 years ago I thought it was a terrible idea. But I've convinced myself I have been proven wrong time and time again. I still think sometime it's complexity for its own sake. Eg. why is it so hard to define a monad? But I enjoyed parts of Scala 2 and later Rust. There are good ideas in FP that lead to programs that are easier to reason about and manage complexity. Languages are borrowing these good ideas and I'm happier for it, algebraic data types, pattern matching and destructuring, result/either, immutability, etc
shirogane86x 4y ago
as someone who did (and still does) a lot of Haskell, and actually loves it, seeing http4s reminded me less of Yesod and more of Servant: really high flexibility, advanced type level magic, and a fairly steep learning curve - especially so if you're not accustomed to advanced typed functional programming.

karmakaze 4y ago

This has been my experience as well, both individually and on a team. Everyone says it's fine as long as you show restraint and stay within bounds you collectively find comfortable/manageable. In practice, we all reach a point of understanding/comfort that doesn't stay with you on reading later, even by the author.

kenhwang 4y ago

The Scala 3 requirement really does cripple the choices available. The Scala 3 transition does feel a bit like the Python 3 transition where major libraries and frameworks are really dragging their feet on transitioning because of the high level of effort for very little obvious improvement. Scala 2 is still getting regular updates so there's no rush to use 3 just yet, I'd recommend picking the framework first and using the Scala version they support. That makes the development experience much better with access to much easier to use frameworks like play or finatra.

vvillena 4y ago
In the long term it will be an improvement. The one thing dragging adoption down is the removal of the old macro system, which depended completely on the implementation details of the old compiler. That said, I agree that Scala 2 is still very much supported, so there's nothing wrong with picking it.

solidninja 4y ago

I do wonder where the recommendation to use http4s for beginners came from. http4s is a very capable library (and if you care much about composition it is excellent), but I wouldn't describe the documentation as beginner friendly. A slightly better starting point for scala 3 + type-safe server building is tapir e.g. https://github.com/softwaremill/tapir/blob/master/examples3/src/main/scala/sttp/tapir/examples3/ErrorUnionTypesHttp4sServer.scala https://github.com/softwaremill/tapir/blob/master/examples3/... . With that, you get a declarative definition of your endpoints (+ error types, auth, etc.) that you can use for both servers and clients, which comes very handy when writing integration tests of course. > absolutely ridiculous the fetishization of extremely complex FP and type-level hacking that goes on in the ecosystem An alternative way to look at it is that there is a lot of essential domain complexity that gets encoded via the type system to let the compiler do the hard work. That "extremely complex FP" does not arrive out of nowhere - I really recommend at least skimming through the slides from rossabaker, the http4s designer, that motivate where the core type signature comes from https://rossabaker.github.io/boston-http4s/#2 https://rossabaker.github.io/boston-http4s/#2 I suppose one of the "features" that I like about the (typelevel) community is that the approach of "worse is better" is not taken, and a lot of effort is expended to make things correct, modular and orthogonal. This has the drawback of increased upfront complexity, that anecdotally pays off the moment your compiler does not error and the program runs as intended.

klabb3 4y ago
> http4s is a very capable library (and if you care much about composition it is excellent), but I wouldn't describe the documentation as beginner friendly. A slightly better starting point for scala 3 + type-safe server building is tapir I am not a scala user but this sounds like a serious violation of composability (ironically), for something so ubiquitous as http. I don't really mind advanced features being available for power users, or later optimizations, but I really dislike being forced to make a mutually exclusive decision between simple and performant, early in the project lifecycle. I think Rust unfortunately often falls in this category as well with async and multiple http libraries, and even the inofficial doctrine of deferring ownership decisions for later. In Go there's basically one way to do things, and the few more advanced things you can do can be opted into later. I assume this is a quality inherited from C, and it's extremely pragmatic and creates a composable ecosystem.

vvillena 4y ago

I agree with the sentiment that the more FP-heavy parts of the Scala ecosystem are not suited to hello-world code _at all_. In this particular case, http4s is at its core a low-level library. The author was right to go for Play first. But it turns out there's an alrernative. Tapir is emerging as that "pure FP, but approachable" HTTP framework. It allows developers to work at a higher level, turning the HTTP backend into an implementation detail. Simply define the application using Tapir, then choose the better backend for the use case.