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> A big part of PMF is timing and luck - factors that are for most parts,out of your control. This is why even other founders that have found PMF are of limited

> A big part of PMF is timing and luck - factors that are for most parts,out of your control. This is why even other founders that have found PMF are of limited help. > What you can control is the market, your team, and the unique insight that you bring as the founder. Your job as a founder is to leverage these strengths to get to PMF. How can you control the market? The market seems like a timing and luck factor that's outside of your control.

mark_undoio 4y ago
I guess you can control the markets you're focusing in - within reason. E.g. picking a particular sector to sell into. How much choice you get depends on the product you're building, so I suppose it's a bit circular.
- Finbarr 4y ago
  Yea you can pick a sector to sell into. But any sector you sell into is constantly evolving. You need to correctly predict the direction things are moving in, which is somewhat a timing and luck factor.
  - rogerkirkness 4y ago
    It's possible that by both of us choosing ecommerce we are making PMF harder for ourselves. I remember selling Shopify circa 2017 was like the easiest job ever. I bet it is a lot harder for their sales team to hit it's number now. Similar for Covid induced mega growth followed by defunding of ecommerce projects.
guiriduro 4y ago
Isn't Lean Startup and its derivatives about taking a systematic approach to going from cool idea but blind/no market, using Validated Learning to gain insight about a market, failing fast on what doesn't work, and (assuming you're in the ballpark of a viable market) move towards Product Market Fit? ie. not totally out of your control, nor totally within it.
- elefanten 4y ago
  Interesting that is now short-handed as Lean Startup. Steve Blank pioneered that formula in the 90s under the term "customer-driven development". But it seems he adopted the "lean" terminology over time, as well.
baxtr 4y ago
I think they mean you can control it by choosing where to play.
samatman 4y ago
They meant the vertical.
indymike 4y ago
> How can you control the market? I think the phrase "control the market" in it's classical definition: a monopoly. It means control the definition of the market. By "controlling the market" your set constraints that should make it easier to get the product right, and then easier to sell after launch. > The market seems like a timing and luck factor that's outside of your control. There's a lot that is outside of control in any startup, or for that matter, when you bring a new product to market in an established company. Some of it is luck. Some of it is being able to quickly iterate and improve. Some of it is having the capital to stay on the playing field long enough. The timing part is the hardest, and is so complex that it might as well be luck. In the end, you control what you can, and have to be ok with riding the trade-winds and current on the rest of it.

mark_undoio 4y ago

I guess you can control the markets you're focusing in - within reason. E.g. picking a particular sector to sell into. How much choice you get depends on the product you're building, so I suppose it's a bit circular.

Finbarr 4y ago
Yea you can pick a sector to sell into. But any sector you sell into is constantly evolving. You need to correctly predict the direction things are moving in, which is somewhat a timing and luck factor.
- rogerkirkness 4y ago
  It's possible that by both of us choosing ecommerce we are making PMF harder for ourselves. I remember selling Shopify circa 2017 was like the easiest job ever. I bet it is a lot harder for their sales team to hit it's number now. Similar for Covid induced mega growth followed by defunding of ecommerce projects.

guiriduro 4y ago

Isn't Lean Startup and its derivatives about taking a systematic approach to going from cool idea but blind/no market, using Validated Learning to gain insight about a market, failing fast on what doesn't work, and (assuming you're in the ballpark of a viable market) move towards Product Market Fit? ie. not totally out of your control, nor totally within it.

elefanten 4y ago
Interesting that is now short-handed as Lean Startup. Steve Blank pioneered that formula in the 90s under the term "customer-driven development". But it seems he adopted the "lean" terminology over time, as well.

baxtr 4y ago

I think they mean you can control it by choosing where to play.

samatman 4y ago

They meant the vertical.

indymike 4y ago

> How can you control the market? I think the phrase "control the market" in it's classical definition: a monopoly. It means control the definition of the market. By "controlling the market" your set constraints that should make it easier to get the product right, and then easier to sell after launch. > The market seems like a timing and luck factor that's outside of your control. There's a lot that is outside of control in any startup, or for that matter, when you bring a new product to market in an established company. Some of it is luck. Some of it is being able to quickly iterate and improve. Some of it is having the capital to stay on the playing field long enough. The timing part is the hardest, and is so complex that it might as well be luck. In the end, you control what you can, and have to be ok with riding the trade-winds and current on the rest of it.