5 ms·

Moon? Please loop me in. There is precedent for censorious tech conglomerates (reddit, at least) to defend people who are sex offenders. I'm no fan of Kiwifarm

by boppo1 4y ago

Moon? Please loop me in. There is precedent for censorious tech conglomerates (reddit, at least) to defend people who are sex offenders. I'm no fan of Kiwifarms, but I'm also no fan of the DIY HRT guide Keffals runs that advises (often underage) people on doing home-chemistry to make hormones. Would be nice if the right could stop slandering every trans person as a mentally ill groomer and the left could stop labeling anyone questioning the ethics of underage transition as nazis long enough to have a reasonable discussion about the topic.

sascha_sl 4y ago
That is a lie. Nobody is making "bathtub estrogen". It's not that easy to make. It's always been a joke. Estradiol as a medication is easily available. It is listed on the WHO list of essential medicines and very commonly prescribed to women after menopause. So there's no money to be made there either.
- boppo1 4y ago
  Hell I dunno bud. All I know is when I followed a few breadcrumbs a while back I quickly found a 'guide' on it. I knew a kid in highschool who extracted DMT himself with lighter fluid from an online guide, and that was just to get high. I know that dysphoria is a pretty desperate situation for some, so I wouldn't be surprised if someone felt motivated to make the attempt.
  - sascha_sl 4y ago
    All serious guides consist of ordering from foreign pharmacies and then knowing what the things you ordered do. If you have any information to the contrary I'd love to see it.
geofft 4y ago
"Moon" is the name of the person who spoke the thing above that is being discussed in this thread. Advising underage people through a wiki on how to make hormones at home is neither sexual assault nor grooming as the term is conventionally understood. How could it be? You can't get in contact with an anonymous reader of information that has been published to the public. You have no idea what they do with that information. So I am not really understanding what its relevance in this thread is. (If anything, it's an example of free speech. You might not be a fan of it, which is totally fine, but information that advises people of any age on knowledge that people would prefer to be un-known is obviously at least as deserving of free speech protection - both in the legal sense of protection from government interference and in the moral sense that lovers of a free society should support it having a platform - as anything posted on Kiwifarms.)
- boppo1 4y ago
  >...example of free speech Well, you have a point there. But if any of the screenshots of the 'catboy'(?) discord are real... I think there's probably a line being crossed.
  - immibis 4y ago
    Screenshots are easy enough to fake.
  - sascha_sl 4y ago
    If you had any interest beyond repeating hearsay, you could have stumbled upon keffals addressing this head on. Attempting to associate LGBT people with pedophiles is as old of a smear tactic as gay people being visible in public. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSqJddReAjg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSqJddReAjg
immibis 4y ago
If you support Kiwifarms on free speech grounds, I absolutely don't see how you could fail to support a DIY HRT guide on the same free speech grounds.
- sonoriyuu 4y ago
  The production and distribution of medication is regulated, and minors are a protected class of citizens. These are the two major issues with DIY HRT guides.
  - immibis 4y ago
    But surely if you have a problem with the distribution of information about how chemicals are produced, you should also have an issue with, you know, deliberately driving people to suicide by making their lives hell. One seems worse than the other.
    - yucky 4y ago
    - Gloomily3819 4y ago
      [flagged]
- JYellensFuckboy 4y ago
  One could argue that there's a huge difference between the two: dangerousness. Making at-home body-altering substances to be consumed is obviously physically dangerous. It's much harder to argue that what KF does is physically dangerous.
- Gloomily3819 4y ago
nyuszika7h 4y ago
I don't think you should generalize people who support censoring hate speech as defending sex offenders. There may be a small group of people who happen to do both, but most of us who have better morals would generally give the benefit of doubt to victims when there's no credible refutal of the claims. I haven't been following this specific case though so I can't say any more than that. As for diyhrt.wiki, they added a prompt asking you to confirm you're over 18 a while ago. Of course people can just lie, but even if you do that, the site does warn of possible risks and recommends having a blood test taken once every 3 months for the first year. Also, while it's good to be cautious, the risk is still not that big. If we were talking about surgeries that would be riskier, though you can't exactly DIY that.
- boppo1 4y ago
  I didn't generalize, just acknowledged that it has and can happen. I don't think most platforms are running cover for a pedo ring or any of that common conspiracy stuff.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

by boppo1 4y ago

sascha_sl 4y ago

That is a lie. Nobody is making "bathtub estrogen". It's not that easy to make. It's always been a joke. Estradiol as a medication is easily available. It is listed on the WHO list of essential medicines and very commonly prescribed to women after menopause. So there's no money to be made there either.

boppo1 4y ago
Hell I dunno bud. All I know is when I followed a few breadcrumbs a while back I quickly found a 'guide' on it. I knew a kid in highschool who extracted DMT himself with lighter fluid from an online guide, and that was just to get high. I know that dysphoria is a pretty desperate situation for some, so I wouldn't be surprised if someone felt motivated to make the attempt.
- sascha_sl 4y ago
  All serious guides consist of ordering from foreign pharmacies and then knowing what the things you ordered do. If you have any information to the contrary I'd love to see it.

geofft 4y ago

"Moon" is the name of the person who spoke the thing above that is being discussed in this thread. Advising underage people through a wiki on how to make hormones at home is neither sexual assault nor grooming as the term is conventionally understood. How could it be? You can't get in contact with an anonymous reader of information that has been published to the public. You have no idea what they do with that information. So I am not really understanding what its relevance in this thread is. (If anything, it's an example of free speech. You might not be a fan of it, which is totally fine, but information that advises people of any age on knowledge that people would prefer to be un-known is obviously at least as deserving of free speech protection - both in the legal sense of protection from government interference and in the moral sense that lovers of a free society should support it having a platform - as anything posted on Kiwifarms.)

boppo1 4y ago
>...example of free speech Well, you have a point there. But if any of the screenshots of the 'catboy'(?) discord are real... I think there's probably a line being crossed.
- immibis 4y ago
  Screenshots are easy enough to fake.
- sascha_sl 4y ago
  If you had any interest beyond repeating hearsay, you could have stumbled upon keffals addressing this head on. Attempting to associate LGBT people with pedophiles is as old of a smear tactic as gay people being visible in public. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSqJddReAjg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSqJddReAjg

immibis 4y ago

If you support Kiwifarms on free speech grounds, I absolutely don't see how you could fail to support a DIY HRT guide on the same free speech grounds.

sonoriyuu 4y ago
The production and distribution of medication is regulated, and minors are a protected class of citizens. These are the two major issues with DIY HRT guides.
- immibis 4y ago
  But surely if you have a problem with the distribution of information about how chemicals are produced, you should also have an issue with, you know, deliberately driving people to suicide by making their lives hell. One seems worse than the other.
  - yucky 4y ago
  - Gloomily3819 4y ago
    [flagged]
JYellensFuckboy 4y ago
One could argue that there's a huge difference between the two: dangerousness. Making at-home body-altering substances to be consumed is obviously physically dangerous. It's much harder to argue that what KF does is physically dangerous.
Gloomily3819 4y ago

nyuszika7h 4y ago

I don't think you should generalize people who support censoring hate speech as defending sex offenders. There may be a small group of people who happen to do both, but most of us who have better morals would generally give the benefit of doubt to victims when there's no credible refutal of the claims. I haven't been following this specific case though so I can't say any more than that. As for diyhrt.wiki, they added a prompt asking you to confirm you're over 18 a while ago. Of course people can just lie, but even if you do that, the site does warn of possible risks and recommends having a blood test taken once every 3 months for the first year. Also, while it's good to be cautious, the risk is still not that big. If we were talking about surgeries that would be riskier, though you can't exactly DIY that.

boppo1 4y ago
I didn't generalize, just acknowledged that it has and can happen. I don't think most platforms are running cover for a pedo ring or any of that common conspiracy stuff.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]