9 ms·

Suddenly everyone who attacks Moon supposedly committed sexual assault and is a groomer or some other slanderous attack. Moon should put up or shut up.

HereIGoAgain 4y ago
You mean the very thing, the very same people are desperately and obsessively trying to keep them from being able to do? You seem to be under the delusion that this is about anything other than the ability of a handful of well connected perverts to effectively silence opinions, information and people they don't like, off of the net. It's pretty humorous for you to argue the need for proof. Also don't forget the the person being talked about has been obsessively stalking and harassing the site owner in question. And yes, that's an objective statement since even the media openly report on his activities against the site.
boppo1 4y ago
Moon? Please loop me in. There is precedent for censorious tech conglomerates (reddit, at least) to defend people who are sex offenders. I'm no fan of Kiwifarms, but I'm also no fan of the DIY HRT guide Keffals runs that advises (often underage) people on doing home-chemistry to make hormones. Would be nice if the right could stop slandering every trans person as a mentally ill groomer and the left could stop labeling anyone questioning the ethics of underage transition as nazis long enough to have a reasonable discussion about the topic.
- sascha_sl 4y ago
  That is a lie. Nobody is making "bathtub estrogen". It's not that easy to make. It's always been a joke. Estradiol as a medication is easily available. It is listed on the WHO list of essential medicines and very commonly prescribed to women after menopause. So there's no money to be made there either.
  - boppo1 4y ago
    Hell I dunno bud. All I know is when I followed a few breadcrumbs a while back I quickly found a 'guide' on it. I knew a kid in highschool who extracted DMT himself with lighter fluid from an online guide, and that was just to get high. I know that dysphoria is a pretty desperate situation for some, so I wouldn't be surprised if someone felt motivated to make the attempt.
    - sascha_sl 4y ago
      All serious guides consist of ordering from foreign pharmacies and then knowing what the things you ordered do. If you have any information to the contrary I'd love to see it.
- geofft 4y ago
  "Moon" is the name of the person who spoke the thing above that is being discussed in this thread. Advising underage people through a wiki on how to make hormones at home is neither sexual assault nor grooming as the term is conventionally understood. How could it be? You can't get in contact with an anonymous reader of information that has been published to the public. You have no idea what they do with that information. So I am not really understanding what its relevance in this thread is. (If anything, it's an example of free speech. You might not be a fan of it, which is totally fine, but information that advises people of any age on knowledge that people would prefer to be un-known is obviously at least as deserving of free speech protection - both in the legal sense of protection from government interference and in the moral sense that lovers of a free society should support it having a platform - as anything posted on Kiwifarms.)
  - boppo1 4y ago
    >...example of free speech Well, you have a point there. But if any of the screenshots of the 'catboy'(?) discord are real... I think there's probably a line being crossed.
    - immibis 4y ago
      Screenshots are easy enough to fake.
    - sascha_sl 4y ago
      If you had any interest beyond repeating hearsay, you could have stumbled upon keffals addressing this head on. Attempting to associate LGBT people with pedophiles is as old of a smear tactic as gay people being visible in public. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSqJddReAjg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSqJddReAjg
- immibis 4y ago
  If you support Kiwifarms on free speech grounds, I absolutely don't see how you could fail to support a DIY HRT guide on the same free speech grounds.
  - sonoriyuu 4y ago
    The production and distribution of medication is regulated, and minors are a protected class of citizens. These are the two major issues with DIY HRT guides.
    - immibis 4y ago
      But surely if you have a problem with the distribution of information about how chemicals are produced, you should also have an issue with, you know, deliberately driving people to suicide by making their lives hell. One seems worse than the other.
      - yucky 4y ago
      - Gloomily3819 4y ago
        [flagged]
  - JYellensFuckboy 4y ago
    One could argue that there's a huge difference between the two: dangerousness. Making at-home body-altering substances to be consumed is obviously physically dangerous. It's much harder to argue that what KF does is physically dangerous.
  - Gloomily3819 4y ago
- nyuszika7h 4y ago
  I don't think you should generalize people who support censoring hate speech as defending sex offenders. There may be a small group of people who happen to do both, but most of us who have better morals would generally give the benefit of doubt to victims when there's no credible refutal of the claims. I haven't been following this specific case though so I can't say any more than that. As for diyhrt.wiki, they added a prompt asking you to confirm you're over 18 a while ago. Of course people can just lie, but even if you do that, the site does warn of possible risks and recommends having a blood test taken once every 3 months for the first year. Also, while it's good to be cautious, the risk is still not that big. If we were talking about surgeries that would be riskier, though you can't exactly DIY that.
  - boppo1 4y ago
    I didn't generalize, just acknowledged that it has and can happen. I don't think most platforms are running cover for a pedo ring or any of that common conspiracy stuff.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
sonoriyuu 4y ago
The sexual assault claim from Moon is actually based on a story from a Zurich Google employee associated with Liz Fong-Jones that accused her of "violating consent" due to dog hair. It's a story Liz posted herself on Twitter back then and KF picked up with archives as proof, so it's not completely made up because Moon wanted to. Means he can put up (if his site was actually online). But stuff like this clearly shows a conflict in interest between Liz and Moon, hence what makes this story even more complicated.
- lizthegrey 4y ago
  He has the ability to update the HTML on the page to be more specific if he so chooses, he doesn't need the entire forum backend to do so. I'm waiting...
  - chroma 4y ago
    He's probably busy trying to get his forum back up after your years-long campaign to intimidate and harass anyone who provides him with services. Once it's up again, people can link to your thread that contains archives of your tweets admitting to violating someone's consent.
  - Big_Discourse 4y ago
- pseudo0 4y ago
  I read up on this after the Cloudflare controversy. Since the site is down, I'm going off my best recollection, but here's a quick summary. Liz Fong-Jones was friends with the founders of Trans Lifeline, a suicide hotline for trans people. The charity had an admirable mission, but people on the KiwiFarms wondered why the site frequently had no operators available, despite receiving significant funding from private individuals and other LGBTQ groups. This led to questions about where the funding was going, with many users thinking that the charity was a scam. At some point the Trans Lifeline founders became aware of the KiwiFarms thread, and their friend Liz Fong-Jones got involved. She allegedly used her corporate @google.com email to send a complaint to KiwiFarms' email provider, in what Moon believed was an attempt to intimidate the small business by harnessing Google's clout for a personal beef [0]. Eventually the issues with Trans Lifeline hit the mainstream LGBTQ news and Twitter, the founders left the organization, and there is a filing that the organization made with the California government stating that the old founders made $350k in "unauthorized purchases" yet no criminal charges were laid [1]. [0] - https://archive.ph/U4d0h https://archive.ph/U4d0h [1] - http://web.archive.org/web/20190221114026/http://rct.doj.ca.gov/Verification/Web/Download.aspx?saveas=CA+Returns+SIGNED.PDF&document_id=09027b8f8037295d http://web.archive.org/web/20190221114026/http://rct.doj.ca....
RedReality 4y ago

HereIGoAgain 4y ago

You mean the very thing, the very same people are desperately and obsessively trying to keep them from being able to do? You seem to be under the delusion that this is about anything other than the ability of a handful of well connected perverts to effectively silence opinions, information and people they don't like, off of the net. It's pretty humorous for you to argue the need for proof. Also don't forget the the person being talked about has been obsessively stalking and harassing the site owner in question. And yes, that's an objective statement since even the media openly report on his activities against the site.

boppo1 4y ago

Moon? Please loop me in. There is precedent for censorious tech conglomerates (reddit, at least) to defend people who are sex offenders. I'm no fan of Kiwifarms, but I'm also no fan of the DIY HRT guide Keffals runs that advises (often underage) people on doing home-chemistry to make hormones. Would be nice if the right could stop slandering every trans person as a mentally ill groomer and the left could stop labeling anyone questioning the ethics of underage transition as nazis long enough to have a reasonable discussion about the topic.

sascha_sl 4y ago
That is a lie. Nobody is making "bathtub estrogen". It's not that easy to make. It's always been a joke. Estradiol as a medication is easily available. It is listed on the WHO list of essential medicines and very commonly prescribed to women after menopause. So there's no money to be made there either.
- boppo1 4y ago
  Hell I dunno bud. All I know is when I followed a few breadcrumbs a while back I quickly found a 'guide' on it. I knew a kid in highschool who extracted DMT himself with lighter fluid from an online guide, and that was just to get high. I know that dysphoria is a pretty desperate situation for some, so I wouldn't be surprised if someone felt motivated to make the attempt.
  - sascha_sl 4y ago
    All serious guides consist of ordering from foreign pharmacies and then knowing what the things you ordered do. If you have any information to the contrary I'd love to see it.
geofft 4y ago
"Moon" is the name of the person who spoke the thing above that is being discussed in this thread. Advising underage people through a wiki on how to make hormones at home is neither sexual assault nor grooming as the term is conventionally understood. How could it be? You can't get in contact with an anonymous reader of information that has been published to the public. You have no idea what they do with that information. So I am not really understanding what its relevance in this thread is. (If anything, it's an example of free speech. You might not be a fan of it, which is totally fine, but information that advises people of any age on knowledge that people would prefer to be un-known is obviously at least as deserving of free speech protection - both in the legal sense of protection from government interference and in the moral sense that lovers of a free society should support it having a platform - as anything posted on Kiwifarms.)
- boppo1 4y ago
  >...example of free speech Well, you have a point there. But if any of the screenshots of the 'catboy'(?) discord are real... I think there's probably a line being crossed.
  - immibis 4y ago
    Screenshots are easy enough to fake.
  - sascha_sl 4y ago
    If you had any interest beyond repeating hearsay, you could have stumbled upon keffals addressing this head on. Attempting to associate LGBT people with pedophiles is as old of a smear tactic as gay people being visible in public. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSqJddReAjg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSqJddReAjg
immibis 4y ago
If you support Kiwifarms on free speech grounds, I absolutely don't see how you could fail to support a DIY HRT guide on the same free speech grounds.
- sonoriyuu 4y ago
  The production and distribution of medication is regulated, and minors are a protected class of citizens. These are the two major issues with DIY HRT guides.
  - immibis 4y ago
    But surely if you have a problem with the distribution of information about how chemicals are produced, you should also have an issue with, you know, deliberately driving people to suicide by making their lives hell. One seems worse than the other.
    - yucky 4y ago
    - Gloomily3819 4y ago
      [flagged]
- JYellensFuckboy 4y ago
  One could argue that there's a huge difference between the two: dangerousness. Making at-home body-altering substances to be consumed is obviously physically dangerous. It's much harder to argue that what KF does is physically dangerous.
- Gloomily3819 4y ago
nyuszika7h 4y ago
I don't think you should generalize people who support censoring hate speech as defending sex offenders. There may be a small group of people who happen to do both, but most of us who have better morals would generally give the benefit of doubt to victims when there's no credible refutal of the claims. I haven't been following this specific case though so I can't say any more than that. As for diyhrt.wiki, they added a prompt asking you to confirm you're over 18 a while ago. Of course people can just lie, but even if you do that, the site does warn of possible risks and recommends having a blood test taken once every 3 months for the first year. Also, while it's good to be cautious, the risk is still not that big. If we were talking about surgeries that would be riskier, though you can't exactly DIY that.
- boppo1 4y ago
  I didn't generalize, just acknowledged that it has and can happen. I don't think most platforms are running cover for a pedo ring or any of that common conspiracy stuff.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

sonoriyuu 4y ago

The sexual assault claim from Moon is actually based on a story from a Zurich Google employee associated with Liz Fong-Jones that accused her of "violating consent" due to dog hair. It's a story Liz posted herself on Twitter back then and KF picked up with archives as proof, so it's not completely made up because Moon wanted to. Means he can put up (if his site was actually online). But stuff like this clearly shows a conflict in interest between Liz and Moon, hence what makes this story even more complicated.

lizthegrey 4y ago
He has the ability to update the HTML on the page to be more specific if he so chooses, he doesn't need the entire forum backend to do so. I'm waiting...
- chroma 4y ago
  He's probably busy trying to get his forum back up after your years-long campaign to intimidate and harass anyone who provides him with services. Once it's up again, people can link to your thread that contains archives of your tweets admitting to violating someone's consent.
- Big_Discourse 4y ago
pseudo0 4y ago
I read up on this after the Cloudflare controversy. Since the site is down, I'm going off my best recollection, but here's a quick summary. Liz Fong-Jones was friends with the founders of Trans Lifeline, a suicide hotline for trans people. The charity had an admirable mission, but people on the KiwiFarms wondered why the site frequently had no operators available, despite receiving significant funding from private individuals and other LGBTQ groups. This led to questions about where the funding was going, with many users thinking that the charity was a scam. At some point the Trans Lifeline founders became aware of the KiwiFarms thread, and their friend Liz Fong-Jones got involved. She allegedly used her corporate @google.com email to send a complaint to KiwiFarms' email provider, in what Moon believed was an attempt to intimidate the small business by harnessing Google's clout for a personal beef [0]. Eventually the issues with Trans Lifeline hit the mainstream LGBTQ news and Twitter, the founders left the organization, and there is a filing that the organization made with the California government stating that the old founders made $350k in "unauthorized purchases" yet no criminal charges were laid [1]. [0] - https://archive.ph/U4d0h https://archive.ph/U4d0h [1] - http://web.archive.org/web/20190221114026/http://rct.doj.ca.gov/Verification/Web/Download.aspx?saveas=CA+Returns+SIGNED.PDF&document_id=09027b8f8037295d http://web.archive.org/web/20190221114026/http://rct.doj.ca....

RedReality 4y ago