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Kiwifarms has gone way past free speech and onto active harassment. To fly this one as a free speech issue is disingenuous. To act like censorship is the issue

Kiwifarms has gone way past free speech and onto active harassment. To fly this one as a free speech issue is disingenuous. To act like censorship is the issue here is pretty ripe.

josephcsible 4y ago
Do you mean the legal definition of harassment, or just the colloquial one? If the legal one, then use the legal system to stop it instead of vigilantism. If just the colloquial one, then it is a free speech issue.
- d_e_solomon 4y ago
- dreen 4y ago
  If I think my customer is using my service to harass people do I need to sue them? Or can I just refuse business? It's not the same as refusing to make a gay cake either, because you can't discriminate based on someone being an asshole.
  - lbruno 4y ago
    it's the other way around, you can discriminate against arseholes there's specific prohibitions against discrimination on the basis of certain categories
- sascha_sl 4y ago
  Do you think legal processes can be flawed?
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    Yes, but when they are, we should just fix them, rather than resorting to vigilantism.
    - sascha_sl 4y ago
      One could argue that a great many things have been left up for corporations to decide, especially in the US. That is by design. I would of course also love to see this addressed in legislature, but that seems unlikely given the current political climate.
    - haswell 4y ago
      > rather than resorting to vigilantism Where/how is vigilantism occurring?
      - immibis 4y ago
        Kiwifarms users are engaging in vigilantism against their targets, and it's not even vigilantism for a real crime - it's vigilantism for the "crime" of being transgender.
        haswell 4y ago
        I believe the parent comment was implying vigilantism on the part of ISPs/providers for the actions they’ve taken against KF. I agree that the participants there are engaging in something closer to vigilantism, although I don’t think they actually believe they have a righteous cause, they’re just unabashedly intolerant and enjoy harassing people which is something else.
        JYellensFuckboy 4y ago
        This isn't quite accurate. While they do disproportionately make threads about people who are trans, they have plenty of threads about cis people as well. It's not like they target random transgender people. If anything, the "crime" would be being Internet-famous.
        Akronymus 4y ago
        And many of the things they post is about immoral/illegal actions. You don't really become a target for them for being well behaved.
- Shawnj2 4y ago
  Cloudflare isn't required to host your site because you pay them money. Unless that changes, I don't see how they're in the wrong here.
bigshell 4y ago
What is harassment? Is it talking about people on a website? People say that stating someone's address, phone number, email, is a form of doxing and therefore harassment. But, these things are just statements of fact. To say that the statement and sharing of factual information obtained legally is not a free speech issue is completely disingenous, 12 years ago when WikiLeaks was leaking information which had been given to them illegally (they didn't recieve the information illegally, but the whistleblower did break the law) they were thrown off of AWS, PayPal, Mastercard, Visa, Bank of America, for the crime of sharing documents. The highest profile free speech related issues on the internet have always been about what you should and shouldn't be able to share publicly.
- d_e_solomon 4y ago
  We keep seeing actions from Kiwifarms that include doxing, swatting,and cyber bullying that lead to the suicide and death of people. If you're saying that swatting is free speech, then we've pushed the idea of speech beyond all reasonable boundaries and have decided that speech just means that people are free from consequences of their actions.
  - bigshell 4y ago
    Have you visited this website? I have. I found what I assume to be doxes which you have to log in to the website if you'd like to view, but that's factual information, why is the statement of factual information so heinous that this website must be taken off the internet? I saw some pretty mean things, but nobody was saying that you should go say these things on other people's profiles, they just kept these mean things on their website. I didn't see anybody organising swattings, or any other sort of criminal activity. I haven't seen any news reports which substantiate these claims that Kiwi Farms is a haven of criminality, just allegations in newspapers which are presented as fact. I've seen no way to verify that any of these claims are in fact true, nobody has.
    - immibis 4y ago
      Hello readers. "bigshell" lives at 1539 William St SE, Albuquerque, New Mexico. How about all you folks who think "bigshell" is incorrect go and show him your numbers?   Now, this isn't bigshell's real address. This is a random place from Google Maps and in fact I picked a gap between existing addresses just in case. But tell me, bigshell, if this had been your real address, would you be okay with it?
FeepingCreature 4y ago
Something about spending most of your time defending scoundrels comes to mind.

Kiwifarms has gone way past free speech and onto active harassment. To fly this one as a free speech issue is disingenuous. To act like censorship is the issue here is pretty ripe.

josephcsible 4y ago

Do you mean the legal definition of harassment, or just the colloquial one? If the legal one, then use the legal system to stop it instead of vigilantism. If just the colloquial one, then it is a free speech issue.

d_e_solomon 4y ago
dreen 4y ago
If I think my customer is using my service to harass people do I need to sue them? Or can I just refuse business? It's not the same as refusing to make a gay cake either, because you can't discriminate based on someone being an asshole.
- lbruno 4y ago
  it's the other way around, you can discriminate against arseholes there's specific prohibitions against discrimination on the basis of certain categories
sascha_sl 4y ago
Do you think legal processes can be flawed?
- josephcsible 4y ago
  Yes, but when they are, we should just fix them, rather than resorting to vigilantism.
  - sascha_sl 4y ago
    One could argue that a great many things have been left up for corporations to decide, especially in the US. That is by design. I would of course also love to see this addressed in legislature, but that seems unlikely given the current political climate.
  - haswell 4y ago
    > rather than resorting to vigilantism Where/how is vigilantism occurring?
    - immibis 4y ago
      Kiwifarms users are engaging in vigilantism against their targets, and it's not even vigilantism for a real crime - it's vigilantism for the "crime" of being transgender.
      - haswell 4y ago
        I believe the parent comment was implying vigilantism on the part of ISPs/providers for the actions they’ve taken against KF. I agree that the participants there are engaging in something closer to vigilantism, although I don’t think they actually believe they have a righteous cause, they’re just unabashedly intolerant and enjoy harassing people which is something else.
      - JYellensFuckboy 4y ago
        This isn't quite accurate. While they do disproportionately make threads about people who are trans, they have plenty of threads about cis people as well. It's not like they target random transgender people. If anything, the "crime" would be being Internet-famous.
        Akronymus 4y ago
        And many of the things they post is about immoral/illegal actions. You don't really become a target for them for being well behaved.
Shawnj2 4y ago
Cloudflare isn't required to host your site because you pay them money. Unless that changes, I don't see how they're in the wrong here.

bigshell 4y ago

What is harassment? Is it talking about people on a website? People say that stating someone's address, phone number, email, is a form of doxing and therefore harassment. But, these things are just statements of fact. To say that the statement and sharing of factual information obtained legally is not a free speech issue is completely disingenous, 12 years ago when WikiLeaks was leaking information which had been given to them illegally (they didn't recieve the information illegally, but the whistleblower did break the law) they were thrown off of AWS, PayPal, Mastercard, Visa, Bank of America, for the crime of sharing documents. The highest profile free speech related issues on the internet have always been about what you should and shouldn't be able to share publicly.

d_e_solomon 4y ago
We keep seeing actions from Kiwifarms that include doxing, swatting,and cyber bullying that lead to the suicide and death of people. If you're saying that swatting is free speech, then we've pushed the idea of speech beyond all reasonable boundaries and have decided that speech just means that people are free from consequences of their actions.
- bigshell 4y ago
  Have you visited this website? I have. I found what I assume to be doxes which you have to log in to the website if you'd like to view, but that's factual information, why is the statement of factual information so heinous that this website must be taken off the internet? I saw some pretty mean things, but nobody was saying that you should go say these things on other people's profiles, they just kept these mean things on their website. I didn't see anybody organising swattings, or any other sort of criminal activity. I haven't seen any news reports which substantiate these claims that Kiwi Farms is a haven of criminality, just allegations in newspapers which are presented as fact. I've seen no way to verify that any of these claims are in fact true, nobody has.
  - immibis 4y ago
    Hello readers. "bigshell" lives at 1539 William St SE, Albuquerque, New Mexico. How about all you folks who think "bigshell" is incorrect go and show him your numbers?   Now, this isn't bigshell's real address. This is a random place from Google Maps and in fact I picked a gap between existing addresses just in case. But tell me, bigshell, if this had been your real address, would you be okay with it?

FeepingCreature 4y ago

Something about spending most of your time defending scoundrels comes to mind.