3 ms·

Tell me how decentralized services allow applications to be permissionless, censorship- and sybil-resistant without a blockchain. I will make both of us rich.

williamtrask 4y ago
Tell me how blockchain makes anything Sybil-resistant and I’ll bite. I can create as many Bitcoin/eth/etc wallets as I want.
- Kerbonut 4y ago
  Ethereum combats that with the concept of gas. You have to pay to play, which is a concept I’ve heard repeated tons of places for ending spam email.
  - pdpi 4y ago
    Gas doesn't do much for Cybil resistance, it's largely meant to stop you from clogging up the network by publishing a transaction that executes the busy beaver function on some nasty input, or something similarly hostile.
- pdpi 4y ago
  There's plenty of really good criticisms of cryptocurrencies, but that's not one of them. The whole point of proof of work is Sybil-resistance. Because your voting power is tied to your hash rate, you can't just conjure up a bunch of voting power by creating as many wallets as you want. Ethereum's move to proof of stake keeps Sybil resistance but trades the power consumption of PoW for some amount of centralisation (because you need to hold funds to vote).
PaulHoule 4y ago
‘Make both of us rich’ is exactly what we’re afraid of.
- rglullis 4y ago
  What are you afraid of, really? People that can make innovations? My point was that the reason that people are doing all this work on the blockchain because no other solution has been shown to be better. Anyone that says "blockchain is not needed for that" should at least provide a better solution, or say "I actually prefer to keep the status quo".
  - joshspankit 4y ago
    I’m not the OP, but I think there is a very real concern that a single person or single group of people who create the “new better system” can significantly drain the resources of everyone else. We actively see this all the time on smaller scales (credit cards, global franchises, FAANG), but the idea of someone doing it at a larger scale should make us hesitate.
    - rglullis 4y ago
      Oh, where do I begin? - You do realize that the comment was tongue-in-cheek? - There is no "resource draining" here. Even if someone found a way to solve the problem of distributed consensus without using a blockchain and found a way to make money out of it, they would be rich by wealth creation: new products, new services, new business.
      - PaulHoule 4y ago
        Web3 is often more interested in moving money around (e.g. "Ponzi Schemes") than really creating anything. Real innovation is a lot of hard work. Recently I read a book by this guy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenny_Lipton https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenny_Lipton because I am teaching myself to make stereograms. Lipton spent a few years in the 1970s figuring out how to make quality stereo movies with the goal of developing a better system for exhibiting stereo movies. In 1980 he wrote a book (that book) which was a lot like a PhD thesis, he then invented the modern system for 3D movies with circular polarized light and sold his company in 2005. In the end he "got rich" but it wasn't quick. The blockhead ideology is a lot like the Amway ideology... Really working, creating something, building something, serving customers, is a lot of work for not enough remuneration. There's got to be some magic secret to riches without effort, and once you've got people to believe it exists, you can exploit them.
coldtea 4y ago
Tells us how blockchain allows applications to be permissionless, censorship- and sybil-resistant in any way that matters and doesn't conflict with the use of said apps.
- rglullis 4y ago
  ENS and Handshake are exact examples of that.
pabs3 4y ago
The GNU Name System does this AFAIK: https://www.gnunet.org/en/gns.html https://www.gnunet.org/en/gns.html
- rglullis 4y ago
  GNS is not globally unique. It is censorship resistant, but it is not permissionless.

williamtrask 4y ago

Tell me how blockchain makes anything Sybil-resistant and I’ll bite. I can create as many Bitcoin/eth/etc wallets as I want.

Kerbonut 4y ago
Ethereum combats that with the concept of gas. You have to pay to play, which is a concept I’ve heard repeated tons of places for ending spam email.
- pdpi 4y ago
  Gas doesn't do much for Cybil resistance, it's largely meant to stop you from clogging up the network by publishing a transaction that executes the busy beaver function on some nasty input, or something similarly hostile.
pdpi 4y ago
There's plenty of really good criticisms of cryptocurrencies, but that's not one of them. The whole point of proof of work is Sybil-resistance. Because your voting power is tied to your hash rate, you can't just conjure up a bunch of voting power by creating as many wallets as you want. Ethereum's move to proof of stake keeps Sybil resistance but trades the power consumption of PoW for some amount of centralisation (because you need to hold funds to vote).

PaulHoule 4y ago

‘Make both of us rich’ is exactly what we’re afraid of.

rglullis 4y ago
What are you afraid of, really? People that can make innovations? My point was that the reason that people are doing all this work on the blockchain because no other solution has been shown to be better. Anyone that says "blockchain is not needed for that" should at least provide a better solution, or say "I actually prefer to keep the status quo".
- joshspankit 4y ago
  I’m not the OP, but I think there is a very real concern that a single person or single group of people who create the “new better system” can significantly drain the resources of everyone else. We actively see this all the time on smaller scales (credit cards, global franchises, FAANG), but the idea of someone doing it at a larger scale should make us hesitate.
  - rglullis 4y ago
    Oh, where do I begin? - You do realize that the comment was tongue-in-cheek? - There is no "resource draining" here. Even if someone found a way to solve the problem of distributed consensus without using a blockchain and found a way to make money out of it, they would be rich by wealth creation: new products, new services, new business.
    - PaulHoule 4y ago
      Web3 is often more interested in moving money around (e.g. "Ponzi Schemes") than really creating anything. Real innovation is a lot of hard work. Recently I read a book by this guy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenny_Lipton https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenny_Lipton because I am teaching myself to make stereograms. Lipton spent a few years in the 1970s figuring out how to make quality stereo movies with the goal of developing a better system for exhibiting stereo movies. In 1980 he wrote a book (that book) which was a lot like a PhD thesis, he then invented the modern system for 3D movies with circular polarized light and sold his company in 2005. In the end he "got rich" but it wasn't quick. The blockhead ideology is a lot like the Amway ideology... Really working, creating something, building something, serving customers, is a lot of work for not enough remuneration. There's got to be some magic secret to riches without effort, and once you've got people to believe it exists, you can exploit them.

coldtea 4y ago

Tells us how blockchain allows applications to be permissionless, censorship- and sybil-resistant in any way that matters and doesn't conflict with the use of said apps.

rglullis 4y ago
ENS and Handshake are exact examples of that.

pabs3 4y ago

The GNU Name System does this AFAIK: https://www.gnunet.org/en/gns.html https://www.gnunet.org/en/gns.html

rglullis 4y ago
GNS is not globally unique. It is censorship resistant, but it is not permissionless.