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The article shows that self-described libertarians do not uniformly align with the Libertarian Party platform. In the same way, self-described liberals do not u

The article shows that self-described libertarians do not uniformly align with the Libertarian Party platform. In the same way, self-described liberals do not uniformly align with the Democratic Party platform and self-described conservatives do not uniformly align with the Republican Party platform. Your perception of what libertarians believe in is more closely attuned to anarcho-capitalism, which is a radical subset of libertarianism. Most libertarians are not anarcho-capitalists. I described your comments as fallacious because you are attacking libertarianism using arguments directed at anarcho-capitalism (straw man). I have never described my political affiliation here, so please don't make assumptions. The Pew Research survey says that 12% of Republicans, 6% of Democrats, and 14% of independents describe themselves as libertarians, so it is not reasonable to label all libertarians in that survey as Republicans.

Eisenstein 4y ago
The Pew study said exactly 'not in line with libertarianism'. If you want to keep trying to redefine what libertarian is, you are welcome to, but you shouldn't use sources which directly contradict you. At this point in time it is clear you are not going to change your mind on this -- and as long as you continue to claimn that I am wrong and fallacious for making assumptions about libertarian political ideas based on my direct experience with people espousing them, then I am afraid we are at an impasse.
- commoner 4y ago
  The Pew study never used the phrase "not in line with libertarianism". It said that "few of them hold consistent libertarian opinions on the role of government, foreign policy and social issues", meaning that self-described libertarians in the U.S. do not tend to subscribe to the entire libertarian agenda, even though their positions are "modestly more supportive of some libertarian positions" than the general population. Libertarians are free to break from libertarian positions on certain issues, just as liberals and conservatives are able to break from liberal and conservative positions. Most people are not ideologues who treat party platforms like religious texts. Radicals tend to be louder than moderates, but judging an entire demographic based on the opinions of its most radical subset is not going to yield a realistic picture of the demographic. If you only consider people libertarians if they pass a purity test that requires them to subscribe to radical beliefs such as the complete abolition of the state, then the resulting group of people will be radical and non-representative of libertarians as a whole.
  - Eisenstein 4y ago
    It is not wrong to be suspicious of someone clearly trying to minimize the extremely negative aspects inherent in a political ideology in order to make it appear reasonable, especially when personal experience is contradictory. If the loud extremists are making all the noise then why are the pragmatic ones not doing anything about it? You seem more intent on convincing people how reasonable you can be instead of distancing yourself from the crazies. There is no reason to latch on to a term that you have to constantly defend because people misinterpret it due to others using it as you do not. I know I am Godwin'ing this thread now but the term National Socialists might key you in to the dangers of not fleeing a right-wing take-over of your group.
    - commoner 4y ago
      The Pew Research survey is real data on what self-described libertarians in the U.S. actually believe. Your personal anecdotal experiences may be different, but frankly, your opinion is a minority view on HN (which leans libertarian compared to the general population), and I'm going to trust Pew Research's survey over your word. > convincing people how reasonable you can be instead of distancing yourself from the crazies Again, I did not express any political ideology. When I saw you making comments conflating libertarianism with anarcho-capitalism, I explained the difference and brought in evidence to show that self-described libertarians generally do not hold the radical views that you believe they do. Equating libertarianism to anarcho-capitalism makes as much sense as conservatives equating progressivism to antifa and warning of a far-left takeover.

Eisenstein 4y ago

The Pew study said exactly 'not in line with libertarianism'. If you want to keep trying to redefine what libertarian is, you are welcome to, but you shouldn't use sources which directly contradict you. At this point in time it is clear you are not going to change your mind on this -- and as long as you continue to claimn that I am wrong and fallacious for making assumptions about libertarian political ideas based on my direct experience with people espousing them, then I am afraid we are at an impasse.

commoner 4y ago
The Pew study never used the phrase "not in line with libertarianism". It said that "few of them hold consistent libertarian opinions on the role of government, foreign policy and social issues", meaning that self-described libertarians in the U.S. do not tend to subscribe to the entire libertarian agenda, even though their positions are "modestly more supportive of some libertarian positions" than the general population. Libertarians are free to break from libertarian positions on certain issues, just as liberals and conservatives are able to break from liberal and conservative positions. Most people are not ideologues who treat party platforms like religious texts. Radicals tend to be louder than moderates, but judging an entire demographic based on the opinions of its most radical subset is not going to yield a realistic picture of the demographic. If you only consider people libertarians if they pass a purity test that requires them to subscribe to radical beliefs such as the complete abolition of the state, then the resulting group of people will be radical and non-representative of libertarians as a whole.
- Eisenstein 4y ago
  It is not wrong to be suspicious of someone clearly trying to minimize the extremely negative aspects inherent in a political ideology in order to make it appear reasonable, especially when personal experience is contradictory. If the loud extremists are making all the noise then why are the pragmatic ones not doing anything about it? You seem more intent on convincing people how reasonable you can be instead of distancing yourself from the crazies. There is no reason to latch on to a term that you have to constantly defend because people misinterpret it due to others using it as you do not. I know I am Godwin'ing this thread now but the term National Socialists might key you in to the dangers of not fleeing a right-wing take-over of your group.
  - commoner 4y ago
    The Pew Research survey is real data on what self-described libertarians in the U.S. actually believe. Your personal anecdotal experiences may be different, but frankly, your opinion is a minority view on HN (which leans libertarian compared to the general population), and I'm going to trust Pew Research's survey over your word. > convincing people how reasonable you can be instead of distancing yourself from the crazies Again, I did not express any political ideology. When I saw you making comments conflating libertarianism with anarcho-capitalism, I explained the difference and brought in evidence to show that self-described libertarians generally do not hold the radical views that you believe they do. Equating libertarianism to anarcho-capitalism makes as much sense as conservatives equating progressivism to antifa and warning of a far-left takeover.