4 ms·

The problem with the UK Tory party is not the personal defects of the captain. The problem is that you’re not eligible for the captaincy unless you agree it was

The problem with the UK Tory party is not the personal defects of the captain. The problem is that you’re not eligible for the captaincy unless you agree it was a brilliant idea to scupper the ship in 2016- and can convincingly act baffled why it has been sinking ever since - David Frum

bamboozled 4y ago
Couldn't get a much better summary than that, aye aye captain!
- hunglee2 4y ago
  indeed. Sometimes it takes an outsider to make the most effective observation
epicureanideal 4y ago
Brexit isn’t the reason they’re failing and losing support. The reason is they are not enacting the policies the electorate expects from them, and in general have been pursuing foolish policies (again, assuming for the sake of argument at least that Brexit itself is not one of those).
- SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
  > Brexit isn’t the reason they’re failing and losing support Rubbish. You cannot meaningfully talk about Tory party policies without understanding that they are rooted in brexit, and rooted in Brexiteer denial of reality, of purging the unbelievers from their party until nobody competent was left, of thinking "we'll promise voters pie in the sky and voters will love us for it", which selects for people who truly believe their own fantasies, and which worked for a while, until the bill came due. Why would you "assume for the sake of argument at least that Brexit itself is not one of those foolish Tory policies" when that is starkly untrue: Brexit is not only the most foolish Tory policy, it is the father of the rest of them. Brexit is a root cause. 1) Ian Dunt "the terrible, inevitable end of the Brexit adventure" https://inews.co.uk/opinion/were-now-witnessing-the-terrible-inevitable-end-of-the-brexit-adventure-1920222 https://inews.co.uk/opinion/were-now-witnessing-the-terrible... 2) Chris Grey: "This isn’t just a crisis, it’s a Brexit crisis" https://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2022/10/total-disarray.html https://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2022/10/total-disar... 3) The Guardian: "this is where Brexit has inexorably led" https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/02/whisper-it-but-it-was-the-folly-of-brexit-that-paved-the-way-for-trusss-crazy-libertarian-zeal https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/02/whispe... 4) David Frum: "The problem is that you’re not eligible for the (UK Tory party) captaincy unless you agree it was a brilliant idea to scupper the ship in 2016- and can convincingly act baffled why it has been sinking ever since" https://twitter.com/davidfrum/status/1583402812804722689 https://twitter.com/davidfrum/status/1583402812804722689
  - mytailorisrich 4y ago
    Brexit is an emotional topic and people are still hung up to it and so quick to blame it for anything that goes wrong. But really budget issues are due to the Covid response and so are many economic problems right now. Inflation is partly caused by Covid, also by the strong Dollar and the 'energy crisis'. Most of the 'energy crisis' is actually the result of decades of policy choices. So IMHO Brexit is only marginal is the current 'top of the agenda' issues.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
      Brexit, it is true, did not cause any of the external troubles such as war and pandemic that are causing cascading issues throughout the world, not just the UK. How ever Brexit, and the consequent need for people in power in the UK to be unrealistic at best, as is stated in the David Frum quote, very much shapes the _UK_'s ability to deal with these shocks in a realistic way. Have you not heard the criticism that "these are serious times, and they are not serious people". it was said about Johnson and co in 2021 (I think) but it hasn't gotten any less true, quite the opposite. If you're going to compare how the UK is facing these challenges vs. other comparable countries, then Brexit and its adherents is a factor, if not "the" factor.
      - epicureanideal 4y ago
        Johnson and co I agree are not serious people, but they shouldn’t even be given any credit or blame for Brexit. They probably wouldn’t have even cared about it other than the influence of Farage.
        SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
        > Johnson ... shouldn’t even be given any credit or blame for Brexit That is certainly an option, but is not a serious one: > Get Brexit Done was a political slogan frequently used by the British Conservative Party and former Prime Minister Boris Johnson in the run up to the 2019 general election. The slogan reflected the party's pledge to, if re-elected, facilitate the United Kingdom's withdrawal from the European Union by the end of January the following year. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get_Brexit_Done https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get_Brexit_Done
- CaptainZapp 4y ago
  Brexit allowed for the decoupling of reality from policy. "We can have our cake and eat it too" "Borrowing 45 billion to finance tax giveaways to the richest will spur growth and make us prosperous" There's just so much utter shit sold as reality to a populace dumbed down by an extreme press and politicians who have zero qualms to be utterly dishonest if it serves their agenda or pocket book. In my mind there's no doubt that this separation from reality was accelerated by Brexit.
  - epicureanideal 4y ago
    I have no idea what that has to do with Brexit, and that wasn’t the main purpose of Brexit.
- detaro 4y ago
  But Brexit has been a massive distraction and point of contention for the party and its governments. When decisions about top posts are made based on stances towards Brexit, it's likely they are not optimal under other criteria. Throwing out MPs over votes, toppling a PM for failing to deliver the stance the hardliners wanted (which wasn't necessarily what the electorate voted for), ... all took energy that could've delivered more useful results. E.g. I'd be very curious how a scenario went where the Brexit vote went as it did, but you didn't have the ERG et al forcing a hardline course. (Which they still do, if I saw right they were in the media again just now about how they'll not let a new PM weaken the stance on Ireland, despite all the mess that has been).
ackbar03 4y ago
Isn't that basically politics in a nutshell? I can apply this to pretty much every high flying manager I've worked under
mytailorisrich 4y ago
The Tories won the 2019 General elections and a huge majority. A big part of that success has been "getting Brexit done". Inflation might be slightly worse because of the Pound but the main causes are the Dollar and energy. The latter is very largely caused by successive policies (or lack thereof) over the last 40 years. The UK has access to its own gas reserves and could be almost completely insulated from the current 'energy crisis'. Economic policy is significantly impacted by Covid. There are profound disagreement within the Tory Party and Brexit does play a role there but this is not a desperate situation, either.
- robert_dipaolo 4y ago
  I think also a big part was Jeremy Corbyn, Labour would have done a lot better if they'd have had a more effective leader. Brexit is not done, we have many more years of it to come!
  - MattPalmer1086 4y ago
    Agreed that played a part in all this. It wasn't even that Corbyn was ineffective. He was actively repellant to quite a large number of people in the UK.
  - pydry 4y ago
    Surprisingly, half of the bureaucrats and MPs in Corbyn's party preferred to see the Tories win. They didn't want to see a socialist/union driven wing of the party take power from them - the corporate/NGO wing. They spent most of their time and effort sabotaging both him and the party with a view to losing the 2019 election and grabbing back the reins of the party afterwards (which they did). This conspiracy is actually pretty well documented through leaks although it didn't get much airtime: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/9/23/unprecedented-leak-exposes-inner-workings-of-uk-labour-party https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/9/23/unprecedented-leak-... The UK media barons also preferred to see the country self destruct before seeing a socialist win as well, so they closed ranks and went on a character assassination extravaganza. Corbyn put their investments at risk with his policies. They didn't like Boris at all but they still painted him as a strong, capable leader even when he hid in a fridge. The public bought it. When Corbyn lost the election, party expelled him to consolidate power and the media serially repeated the story you just did to try and make sure this socialism/peacenik thing never took hold and threatened their portfolios ever again. The real irony is that we were serially promised years of absolute chaos and a return to the 1970s with stagflation and a wave of strikes if we voted for this guy: https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/08/09/corbyn-dragging-labour-back-to-the-1970s_n_7961890.html https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/08/09/corbyn-dragging-... Now here we are. The dark future we were promised spurred by an energy crisis Boris helped make happen by pressuring Ukraine into canceling peace talks: https://uawire.org/ukrainian-media-johnson-tells-zelensky-to-stop-negotiations-with-putin-and-fight-russia-to-a-victorious-end https://uawire.org/ukrainian-media-johnson-tells-zelensky-to...

bamboozled 4y ago

Couldn't get a much better summary than that, aye aye captain!

hunglee2 4y ago
indeed. Sometimes it takes an outsider to make the most effective observation

epicureanideal 4y ago

Brexit isn’t the reason they’re failing and losing support. The reason is they are not enacting the policies the electorate expects from them, and in general have been pursuing foolish policies (again, assuming for the sake of argument at least that Brexit itself is not one of those).

SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
> Brexit isn’t the reason they’re failing and losing support Rubbish. You cannot meaningfully talk about Tory party policies without understanding that they are rooted in brexit, and rooted in Brexiteer denial of reality, of purging the unbelievers from their party until nobody competent was left, of thinking "we'll promise voters pie in the sky and voters will love us for it", which selects for people who truly believe their own fantasies, and which worked for a while, until the bill came due. Why would you "assume for the sake of argument at least that Brexit itself is not one of those foolish Tory policies" when that is starkly untrue: Brexit is not only the most foolish Tory policy, it is the father of the rest of them. Brexit is a root cause. 1) Ian Dunt "the terrible, inevitable end of the Brexit adventure" https://inews.co.uk/opinion/were-now-witnessing-the-terrible-inevitable-end-of-the-brexit-adventure-1920222 https://inews.co.uk/opinion/were-now-witnessing-the-terrible... 2) Chris Grey: "This isn’t just a crisis, it’s a Brexit crisis" https://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2022/10/total-disarray.html https://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2022/10/total-disar... 3) The Guardian: "this is where Brexit has inexorably led" https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/02/whisper-it-but-it-was-the-folly-of-brexit-that-paved-the-way-for-trusss-crazy-libertarian-zeal https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/02/whispe... 4) David Frum: "The problem is that you’re not eligible for the (UK Tory party) captaincy unless you agree it was a brilliant idea to scupper the ship in 2016- and can convincingly act baffled why it has been sinking ever since" https://twitter.com/davidfrum/status/1583402812804722689 https://twitter.com/davidfrum/status/1583402812804722689
- mytailorisrich 4y ago
  Brexit is an emotional topic and people are still hung up to it and so quick to blame it for anything that goes wrong. But really budget issues are due to the Covid response and so are many economic problems right now. Inflation is partly caused by Covid, also by the strong Dollar and the 'energy crisis'. Most of the 'energy crisis' is actually the result of decades of policy choices. So IMHO Brexit is only marginal is the current 'top of the agenda' issues.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
    Brexit, it is true, did not cause any of the external troubles such as war and pandemic that are causing cascading issues throughout the world, not just the UK. How ever Brexit, and the consequent need for people in power in the UK to be unrealistic at best, as is stated in the David Frum quote, very much shapes the _UK_'s ability to deal with these shocks in a realistic way. Have you not heard the criticism that "these are serious times, and they are not serious people". it was said about Johnson and co in 2021 (I think) but it hasn't gotten any less true, quite the opposite. If you're going to compare how the UK is facing these challenges vs. other comparable countries, then Brexit and its adherents is a factor, if not "the" factor.
    - epicureanideal 4y ago
      Johnson and co I agree are not serious people, but they shouldn’t even be given any credit or blame for Brexit. They probably wouldn’t have even cared about it other than the influence of Farage.
      - SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
        > Johnson ... shouldn’t even be given any credit or blame for Brexit That is certainly an option, but is not a serious one: > Get Brexit Done was a political slogan frequently used by the British Conservative Party and former Prime Minister Boris Johnson in the run up to the 2019 general election. The slogan reflected the party's pledge to, if re-elected, facilitate the United Kingdom's withdrawal from the European Union by the end of January the following year. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get_Brexit_Done https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get_Brexit_Done
CaptainZapp 4y ago
Brexit allowed for the decoupling of reality from policy. "We can have our cake and eat it too" "Borrowing 45 billion to finance tax giveaways to the richest will spur growth and make us prosperous" There's just so much utter shit sold as reality to a populace dumbed down by an extreme press and politicians who have zero qualms to be utterly dishonest if it serves their agenda or pocket book. In my mind there's no doubt that this separation from reality was accelerated by Brexit.
- epicureanideal 4y ago
  I have no idea what that has to do with Brexit, and that wasn’t the main purpose of Brexit.
detaro 4y ago
But Brexit has been a massive distraction and point of contention for the party and its governments. When decisions about top posts are made based on stances towards Brexit, it's likely they are not optimal under other criteria. Throwing out MPs over votes, toppling a PM for failing to deliver the stance the hardliners wanted (which wasn't necessarily what the electorate voted for), ... all took energy that could've delivered more useful results. E.g. I'd be very curious how a scenario went where the Brexit vote went as it did, but you didn't have the ERG et al forcing a hardline course. (Which they still do, if I saw right they were in the media again just now about how they'll not let a new PM weaken the stance on Ireland, despite all the mess that has been).

ackbar03 4y ago

Isn't that basically politics in a nutshell? I can apply this to pretty much every high flying manager I've worked under

mytailorisrich 4y ago

The Tories won the 2019 General elections and a huge majority. A big part of that success has been "getting Brexit done". Inflation might be slightly worse because of the Pound but the main causes are the Dollar and energy. The latter is very largely caused by successive policies (or lack thereof) over the last 40 years. The UK has access to its own gas reserves and could be almost completely insulated from the current 'energy crisis'. Economic policy is significantly impacted by Covid. There are profound disagreement within the Tory Party and Brexit does play a role there but this is not a desperate situation, either.

robert_dipaolo 4y ago
I think also a big part was Jeremy Corbyn, Labour would have done a lot better if they'd have had a more effective leader. Brexit is not done, we have many more years of it to come!
- MattPalmer1086 4y ago
  Agreed that played a part in all this. It wasn't even that Corbyn was ineffective. He was actively repellant to quite a large number of people in the UK.
- pydry 4y ago
  Surprisingly, half of the bureaucrats and MPs in Corbyn's party preferred to see the Tories win. They didn't want to see a socialist/union driven wing of the party take power from them - the corporate/NGO wing. They spent most of their time and effort sabotaging both him and the party with a view to losing the 2019 election and grabbing back the reins of the party afterwards (which they did). This conspiracy is actually pretty well documented through leaks although it didn't get much airtime: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/9/23/unprecedented-leak-exposes-inner-workings-of-uk-labour-party https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/9/23/unprecedented-leak-... The UK media barons also preferred to see the country self destruct before seeing a socialist win as well, so they closed ranks and went on a character assassination extravaganza. Corbyn put their investments at risk with his policies. They didn't like Boris at all but they still painted him as a strong, capable leader even when he hid in a fridge. The public bought it. When Corbyn lost the election, party expelled him to consolidate power and the media serially repeated the story you just did to try and make sure this socialism/peacenik thing never took hold and threatened their portfolios ever again. The real irony is that we were serially promised years of absolute chaos and a return to the 1970s with stagflation and a wave of strikes if we voted for this guy: https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/08/09/corbyn-dragging-labour-back-to-the-1970s_n_7961890.html https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/08/09/corbyn-dragging-... Now here we are. The dark future we were promised spurred by an energy crisis Boris helped make happen by pressuring Ukraine into canceling peace talks: https://uawire.org/ukrainian-media-johnson-tells-zelensky-to-stop-negotiations-with-putin-and-fight-russia-to-a-victorious-end https://uawire.org/ukrainian-media-johnson-tells-zelensky-to...