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> For test prep, then you need some extra math instruction, not test prep. This is a worthless distinction, that is correct only on an irrelevant technically.

by stale2002 4y ago

> For test prep, then you need some extra math instruction, not test prep. This is a worthless distinction, that is correct only on an irrelevant technically. The point being, that when people prepare for the test, they get better scores. Yes, there are multiple ways to prepare for a test. But preparing is a good thing, regardless of what you call it, or if you are saying that regular math class also covers it.

WalterBright 4y ago
What I mean by "test prep" is learning how to game the test, not actually learning the material the test covers.
- stale2002 4y ago
  > What I mean by "test prep" is learning how to game the test You'd also be wrong here. Let me give you a simple example, that might not be immediately apparent to someone who doesn't know the rules of these tests. At one point in time, on some tests, there was a "guessing penalty" for getting a wrong answer. Having a basic understanding of how that works, and different guessing strategies, can increase your score. EX: questions like should you guess? Should you rule out answers, and guess on the remaining? There are even other things to think about, such as one's strategy for how long to spend on a question, and if/when you should give up on that one. A person not experienced in test taking, might make a mistake of spending too much time on one single question, for example, when instead it could make more sense to skim the test first, for easy questions, and answer those first, so you don't run out of time and miss easy points. Just learning the material doesn't automatically prevent you from making this mistake.
  - SamBam 4y ago
    That's the only thing I remember from the test-prep book I bought: a brief paragraph about the "guessing penalty." As the book said, it wasn't a guessing penalty, it was a guessing-wrong penalty. They told you it was a guessing penalty to scare you into not guessing. The penalty was a quarter point. Most questions had four options. So it was already an expected zero points on average, not a penalty, and if you could eliminate a single answer it was a net positive to guess.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    > that might not be immediately apparent to someone who doesn't know the rules of these tests. 1. Read the rules of the tests. Come on! Does one really need handholding with this? 2. Understanding the probability of success at guessing based on how many of the answers you can eliminate is trivial probability, which goes back to my advice to pay attention in math class. 3. "how long to spend on a question" I'm laughing/crying now. It's third grade arithmetic to figure out the time per question. You know, number of minutes for the test divided by the number of questions. Of course skim the test picking off the easy ones then the medium ones and save the hard ones for last. This is just common sense. If this is what test prep is, things are much worse than I thought. Who needs to be told that reading the instructions is a strategy for doing well on the test? My gawd.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
      A lot of people naturally approach tests by trying to solve the problems in order. For some tests, that's not the right approach. Going in order may be a bad idea. Actually trying to immediately solve the problems may be a bad idea. For example, it may be more efficient to check the units of all the multiple-choice answers first, to see if there's only one that's possibly correct. You could try to figure out the best strategy during the test, but it's far more effective to learn these things before the test. If you've already done a dozen practice tests, you'll know what kinds of methods there are to quickly eliminate incorrect multiple-choice answers. You'll know, say, that there are fundamentally 8 types of problems, and you'll be able to skim the test and immediately recognize which problems call into which categories. This is why people who do test prep get higher scores. That doesn't mean that we should throw out standardized tests, but it is silly to deny that test prep helps (a lot).
    - stale2002 4y ago
      > Who needs to be told And yet despite your incredulous, fake outrage, the stats simply show that test prep helps people significantly. If you really want more reasons, read the other response that DiogenesKynikos gave to you in the post. My problem is with you make false statements here. Be as mad as you want about the fake that test prep helps a lot of people, significantly, but do not make false claims, and ignore the fact that the stats show that it works.
- kelnos 4y ago
  Why does it seem so odd to you that learning how the test works, and learning about strategies that work for the specific test, can increase your score? It seems obvious that this would be the case, and it's pretty clear that this actually has helped many people (myself included) get a better score on subsequent attempts.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    Why not just learn the material instead? It's a much more useful skill. And you can be proud that you did it without gaming the test.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - stale2002 4y ago
      > Why not just learn the material instead? It's a much more useful skill. And you can be proud that you did it without gaming the test Because gaming the test works, as the stats prove. And these tests are very important for college admissions. There is no reason to handicap one's self, just because someone from the peanut gallery is yelling in incredulous outrage.

WalterBright 4y ago

What I mean by "test prep" is learning how to game the test, not actually learning the material the test covers.

stale2002 4y ago
> What I mean by "test prep" is learning how to game the test You'd also be wrong here. Let me give you a simple example, that might not be immediately apparent to someone who doesn't know the rules of these tests. At one point in time, on some tests, there was a "guessing penalty" for getting a wrong answer. Having a basic understanding of how that works, and different guessing strategies, can increase your score. EX: questions like should you guess? Should you rule out answers, and guess on the remaining? There are even other things to think about, such as one's strategy for how long to spend on a question, and if/when you should give up on that one. A person not experienced in test taking, might make a mistake of spending too much time on one single question, for example, when instead it could make more sense to skim the test first, for easy questions, and answer those first, so you don't run out of time and miss easy points. Just learning the material doesn't automatically prevent you from making this mistake.
- SamBam 4y ago
  That's the only thing I remember from the test-prep book I bought: a brief paragraph about the "guessing penalty." As the book said, it wasn't a guessing penalty, it was a guessing-wrong penalty. They told you it was a guessing penalty to scare you into not guessing. The penalty was a quarter point. Most questions had four options. So it was already an expected zero points on average, not a penalty, and if you could eliminate a single answer it was a net positive to guess.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  > that might not be immediately apparent to someone who doesn't know the rules of these tests. 1. Read the rules of the tests. Come on! Does one really need handholding with this? 2. Understanding the probability of success at guessing based on how many of the answers you can eliminate is trivial probability, which goes back to my advice to pay attention in math class. 3. "how long to spend on a question" I'm laughing/crying now. It's third grade arithmetic to figure out the time per question. You know, number of minutes for the test divided by the number of questions. Of course skim the test picking off the easy ones then the medium ones and save the hard ones for last. This is just common sense. If this is what test prep is, things are much worse than I thought. Who needs to be told that reading the instructions is a strategy for doing well on the test? My gawd.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
    A lot of people naturally approach tests by trying to solve the problems in order. For some tests, that's not the right approach. Going in order may be a bad idea. Actually trying to immediately solve the problems may be a bad idea. For example, it may be more efficient to check the units of all the multiple-choice answers first, to see if there's only one that's possibly correct. You could try to figure out the best strategy during the test, but it's far more effective to learn these things before the test. If you've already done a dozen practice tests, you'll know what kinds of methods there are to quickly eliminate incorrect multiple-choice answers. You'll know, say, that there are fundamentally 8 types of problems, and you'll be able to skim the test and immediately recognize which problems call into which categories. This is why people who do test prep get higher scores. That doesn't mean that we should throw out standardized tests, but it is silly to deny that test prep helps (a lot).
  - stale2002 4y ago
    > Who needs to be told And yet despite your incredulous, fake outrage, the stats simply show that test prep helps people significantly. If you really want more reasons, read the other response that DiogenesKynikos gave to you in the post. My problem is with you make false statements here. Be as mad as you want about the fake that test prep helps a lot of people, significantly, but do not make false claims, and ignore the fact that the stats show that it works.
kelnos 4y ago
Why does it seem so odd to you that learning how the test works, and learning about strategies that work for the specific test, can increase your score? It seems obvious that this would be the case, and it's pretty clear that this actually has helped many people (myself included) get a better score on subsequent attempts.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  Why not just learn the material instead? It's a much more useful skill. And you can be proud that you did it without gaming the test.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - stale2002 4y ago
    > Why not just learn the material instead? It's a much more useful skill. And you can be proud that you did it without gaming the test Because gaming the test works, as the stats prove. And these tests are very important for college admissions. There is no reason to handicap one's self, just because someone from the peanut gallery is yelling in incredulous outrage.