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No function keys is a complete deal breaker for me. I do not care about layers or whatever ergonomic arguments that arise. I want to be able to mash F5 and star

No function keys is a complete deal breaker for me. I do not care about layers or whatever ergonomic arguments that arise. I want to be able to mash F5 and start the debugger whenever I need it. Also, $439 is a very stiff price. I thought my Freestyle Pro at ~$150 was already luxurious.

platz 4y ago
have you ever tried to mash F5 on the old kinesis advantage2 without looking
- neuronexmachina 4y ago
  I have an OG Advantage, which has it even worse. Basically, it uses rubberized F-keys instead of mechanical ones.
farslan 4y ago
OP here. The function keys can be accessed via the FN layer. I’ve added new keymap images where you can see each individual layer. The old Advantage2’s FN keys were not good, so they get rid of it. If you start using layers, you’ll see that most key combos or keys are not actually that useful.
orangepurple 4y ago
Layout layers are the future. Mapping more than three keys per finger is unergonomic. You want to switch between layers quickly with modifier keys actuated by your thumb. With this approach you can ergonomically access 204 symbols (34 (pads) * 3 (layers) * 2 (shift)) with 34 keys. Heck even three pads per finger is too much imo and I need to devote more research into two pad per finger layouts which rely on multi-pad press combos (stenography) to avoid using the bottom row and pinkies. Till then you'll probably catch me using MTGAP 30 on an ANSI.
- czei002 4y ago
  I type a lot but not that much typing that pads per finger would be an issue for me. I use f keys for changing desktops (ctrl + Fx) and I use the media keys to change volume. The later I use infrequently and not having a symbol on a key wouldn't work for me, I wouldn't remember where it is... You can still use layers even though there is an extra row of keys so not sure why to remove keys other people rely on.
  - gsinclair 4y ago
    > … so not sure why to remove keys other people rely on. It’s nice for some people, including me, too have fewer rows of keys because then I have greater confidence in my peripheral vision. Extra rows introduce uncertainty.
cbm-vic-20 4y ago
The keyboard's firmware is very flexible- you can remap all of the keys, and also do things like "mod tap" or "layer tap"- for example, when I tap the backspace key (one of the thumb buttons), it sends a backspace. If I hold the key down, it puts they keyboard into a layout where I can more easily access the symbols used commonly in programming. I have the delete key (which is next to it in the thumb cluster) act as an extra Ctrl key when held down. https://zmk.dev/docs/behaviors/hold-tap https://zmk.dev/docs/behaviors/hold-tap
least 4y ago
There's enough keys (including ones that aren't even really mapped) on the Advantage 360 Pro that you could use as a dedicated f5 key.
jcpst 4y ago
I used to feel the same. So when I was looking for some relief and an ergonomic layout, I picked the X-Bows. It has fn keys and was a nice introduction into the non-standard layouts. It made a big difference for me. Then I picked up a keyboardio atreus. It took me a few weeks to get comfortable with it. But now using layers feels natural- I don’t have to leave the home row! Having an F5 foot pedal would be fun…
bee_rider 4y ago
I've also got the freestyle pro, I can't really imagine wanting a fancier keyboard (but if anyone wants my F-keys they can have them, the things are useless mostly).
- microtonal 4y ago
  I have two Freestyle Edges as well, but they are mostly collecting dust now. Once your are used to the column stagger, key wells, and thumb keys of the Advantage, there is not really a way back. I dread typing on a row stagger single/split spacebar keyboard now. (That said, the Freestyle Pro/Edge is an awesome board for a more traditional layout, especially with the tenting kit.)
imoreno 4y ago
For me the bigger deal breaker was that Kinesis blocks my VPN.
nine_k 4y ago
With layers, you mash the F5 key even faster, without moving your wrists. Usually you press a layer selection key with one hand, and the F5 on that layer with the other, in one fluid movement.
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  In my case, I understand the benefits of layers, and it's actually the thing I miss the most on my Keychron K2, which I otherwise enjoy, and is the reason I'm eyeing the newer QMK-based models. But I also specifically want to be able to avoid layers in some situations. I sometimes want to be able to use the keyboard while I'm not in "full-on typing mode". For example, if one of my hands is busy holding an apple. I would like to be able to change the volume with a single key press, or step the debugger, or refresh the webpage, etc. And that's an absolute pain to do if I need to press multiple keys, especially if the keys I'd need to press would be designed for "one fluid movement", basically requiring two hands. Bonus points for the keyboard being split, so there's no hope for a single hand to reach both keys. What I'm trying to say is that I see a case for actually having both possibilities on the same keyboard. They don't have to be exclusive. I can have layers and use those when I'm typing, and have them set up for two-handed use. I could use those even if the keyboard had physical Fx and media keys. And for a gigantic and expensive keyboard such as the one discussed here, or any of the similar models, the price difference would be negligible, both cash and size wise.
  - gsinclair 4y ago
    Excellent point. My solution: use the laptop keyboard for casual button pushing or even casual typing. That solution works if and only if your computer is a laptop.
rgoulter 4y ago
> I do not care about layers or whatever ergonomic arguments that arise. I tend to think this is more a matter of preference, so, sure, this keyboard isn't for you. But what's your experience with layering? Is it "tried it, reached the same typing speed as before, didn't like it", or?
- fbdab103 4y ago
  The way many of these keyboards work with layering makes it a functional requirement rather than a choice. For the (very) premium price, I would rather they include the additional keys and let me decide if I want to utilize layering. I have enough low-utilization keys that I want always accessible without any impediment. My desk is not space constrained such that an additional physical row or two of keys is going to make my workspace unusable. If I choose to embrace layering and never use the F-keys, fine. However, if I want to only ever utilize 12 keys and do some monstrous chording setup, also an option.
  - rgoulter 4y ago
    I think removing the function row goes hand in hand with other design decisions. Comparing to the freestyle pro, this advantage360: neither has a numpad. But the advantage360 also has: symmetrical / not row staggered, more keys for the thumb to reach (rather than just a big spacebar) which allows for reduced pinky finger usage. I think removing the function row follows coherently in line with these other decisions.

platz 4y ago

have you ever tried to mash F5 on the old kinesis advantage2 without looking

neuronexmachina 4y ago
I have an OG Advantage, which has it even worse. Basically, it uses rubberized F-keys instead of mechanical ones.

farslan 4y ago

OP here. The function keys can be accessed via the FN layer. I’ve added new keymap images where you can see each individual layer. The old Advantage2’s FN keys were not good, so they get rid of it. If you start using layers, you’ll see that most key combos or keys are not actually that useful.

orangepurple 4y ago

Layout layers are the future. Mapping more than three keys per finger is unergonomic. You want to switch between layers quickly with modifier keys actuated by your thumb. With this approach you can ergonomically access 204 symbols (34 (pads) * 3 (layers) * 2 (shift)) with 34 keys. Heck even three pads per finger is too much imo and I need to devote more research into two pad per finger layouts which rely on multi-pad press combos (stenography) to avoid using the bottom row and pinkies. Till then you'll probably catch me using MTGAP 30 on an ANSI.

czei002 4y ago
I type a lot but not that much typing that pads per finger would be an issue for me. I use f keys for changing desktops (ctrl + Fx) and I use the media keys to change volume. The later I use infrequently and not having a symbol on a key wouldn't work for me, I wouldn't remember where it is... You can still use layers even though there is an extra row of keys so not sure why to remove keys other people rely on.
- gsinclair 4y ago
  > … so not sure why to remove keys other people rely on. It’s nice for some people, including me, too have fewer rows of keys because then I have greater confidence in my peripheral vision. Extra rows introduce uncertainty.

cbm-vic-20 4y ago

The keyboard's firmware is very flexible- you can remap all of the keys, and also do things like "mod tap" or "layer tap"- for example, when I tap the backspace key (one of the thumb buttons), it sends a backspace. If I hold the key down, it puts they keyboard into a layout where I can more easily access the symbols used commonly in programming. I have the delete key (which is next to it in the thumb cluster) act as an extra Ctrl key when held down. https://zmk.dev/docs/behaviors/hold-tap https://zmk.dev/docs/behaviors/hold-tap

least 4y ago

There's enough keys (including ones that aren't even really mapped) on the Advantage 360 Pro that you could use as a dedicated f5 key.

jcpst 4y ago

I used to feel the same. So when I was looking for some relief and an ergonomic layout, I picked the X-Bows. It has fn keys and was a nice introduction into the non-standard layouts. It made a big difference for me. Then I picked up a keyboardio atreus. It took me a few weeks to get comfortable with it. But now using layers feels natural- I don’t have to leave the home row! Having an F5 foot pedal would be fun…

bee_rider 4y ago

I've also got the freestyle pro, I can't really imagine wanting a fancier keyboard (but if anyone wants my F-keys they can have them, the things are useless mostly).

microtonal 4y ago
I have two Freestyle Edges as well, but they are mostly collecting dust now. Once your are used to the column stagger, key wells, and thumb keys of the Advantage, there is not really a way back. I dread typing on a row stagger single/split spacebar keyboard now. (That said, the Freestyle Pro/Edge is an awesome board for a more traditional layout, especially with the tenting kit.)

imoreno 4y ago

For me the bigger deal breaker was that Kinesis blocks my VPN.

nine_k 4y ago

With layers, you mash the F5 key even faster, without moving your wrists. Usually you press a layer selection key with one hand, and the F5 on that layer with the other, in one fluid movement.

vladvasiliu 4y ago
In my case, I understand the benefits of layers, and it's actually the thing I miss the most on my Keychron K2, which I otherwise enjoy, and is the reason I'm eyeing the newer QMK-based models. But I also specifically want to be able to avoid layers in some situations. I sometimes want to be able to use the keyboard while I'm not in "full-on typing mode". For example, if one of my hands is busy holding an apple. I would like to be able to change the volume with a single key press, or step the debugger, or refresh the webpage, etc. And that's an absolute pain to do if I need to press multiple keys, especially if the keys I'd need to press would be designed for "one fluid movement", basically requiring two hands. Bonus points for the keyboard being split, so there's no hope for a single hand to reach both keys. What I'm trying to say is that I see a case for actually having both possibilities on the same keyboard. They don't have to be exclusive. I can have layers and use those when I'm typing, and have them set up for two-handed use. I could use those even if the keyboard had physical Fx and media keys. And for a gigantic and expensive keyboard such as the one discussed here, or any of the similar models, the price difference would be negligible, both cash and size wise.
- gsinclair 4y ago
  Excellent point. My solution: use the laptop keyboard for casual button pushing or even casual typing. That solution works if and only if your computer is a laptop.

rgoulter 4y ago

> I do not care about layers or whatever ergonomic arguments that arise. I tend to think this is more a matter of preference, so, sure, this keyboard isn't for you. But what's your experience with layering? Is it "tried it, reached the same typing speed as before, didn't like it", or?

fbdab103 4y ago
The way many of these keyboards work with layering makes it a functional requirement rather than a choice. For the (very) premium price, I would rather they include the additional keys and let me decide if I want to utilize layering. I have enough low-utilization keys that I want always accessible without any impediment. My desk is not space constrained such that an additional physical row or two of keys is going to make my workspace unusable. If I choose to embrace layering and never use the F-keys, fine. However, if I want to only ever utilize 12 keys and do some monstrous chording setup, also an option.
- rgoulter 4y ago
  I think removing the function row goes hand in hand with other design decisions. Comparing to the freestyle pro, this advantage360: neither has a numpad. But the advantage360 also has: symmetrical / not row staggered, more keys for the thumb to reach (rather than just a big spacebar) which allows for reduced pinky finger usage. I think removing the function row follows coherently in line with these other decisions.