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I don't think WASPs are given an edge here. I feel like it is actually racist to make this assumption also. White people as a broad category are the only racial

I don't think WASPs are given an edge here. I feel like it is actually racist to make this assumption also. White people as a broad category are the only racial group that is underrepresented relative to their population percentage in Ivy League schools. Maybe you could make the argument that WASPs are a subset of white people who are overrepresented specifically because of that faculty benefit for admissions but then I am not sure why, for example, you couldn't make that claim about other groups who are overrepresented in the faculty and student body. There are other groups who fit that critique but the people who argue Ivy League admissions are unfair seem to make a scapegoat out of WASPs exclusively.

trafficante 4y ago
I think the person you’re replying to is referring to the current(?) standardized testing regime that heavily rewards test prep above all else. There’s a very obvious correlation between the SATs de-emphasizing essays (~2000-2005ish) and Asians absolutely blasting past Whites in terms of average SAT score.
rayiner 4y ago
I didn’t say WASPs are given an edge. But the institutions are controlled by them. And minorities must appeal to their fancy to get in.
- tdba 4y ago
  > institutions are controlled by them Citation very much needed. Have you actually looked at who occupies the high level executive positions at Ivy league tier universities? It's not predominantly WASPs.
- onetimeusename 4y ago
  I didn't say WASPs are given an edge You are making a nuanced argument for sure then. But the Students for Fair Admissions have explicitly made the case that whites are given an advantage that takes Asian seats at Harvard via the children of faculty admissions, donations, essays, athletics, etc. But this discounts donations from certain foreign governments and I think it creates a misconception about the average white student there and pressures Harvard to specifically accept fewer whites (WASPs in particular imo) because that is the only socially acceptable result of their lawsuits despite whites being underrepresented there anyway. No one questions whether any other group has a backdoor admissions advantage though. But the institutions are controlled by them. And minorities must appeal to their fancy to get in. If you had said this about any other group it would not be socially acceptable even though a case could plausibly be made that Harvard is not run by the stereotypical blazer and khaki wearing WASPs. That's really what I am trying to point out is how strange it is that only WASPs can ever be criticized. I am not even trying to play a race card and I am strongly in favor of free speech. I am just trying to point out that in my opinion there is misdirection going on and that WASPs are probably being scapegoated in the fight over Harvard. Especially since anti-WASPishness has been the esprit de corps in academia for some time, I doubt they have any real control there. See other commenter's posts for example. edit: this is a deep topic for sure and touches on a lot of American history. Given that every US president until Kennedy was a WASP, and that Harvard was started by WASPs for WASPs, Harvard's student body was undoubtedly slanted towards WASPs. But I personally doubt this has been true for at least a decade now but probably longer.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    > You are making a nuanced argument for sure then. It’s not a nuanced argument at all. Harvard and similar universities are WASP institutions run by WASPs. When you have non-objective admissions standards, you have to appeal to their WASP sensibilities to get admitted. That doesn’t necessarily mean they prefer other WASPs. They also like minorities that affirm their worldview (but not so much minorities that don’t affirm their worldview). The root of your confusion seems to be thinking that I’m using “WASP” to mean “white people” generically. White people aren’t a monolith. Harvard WASPs have nothing to do with folks in Appalachia (who may literally be white and Protestant).
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - lupire 4y ago
      Northern White Anglo-Saxon Protestants like David Evans, who spent 50 years in Harvard Admissions, and was born in Arkansas to the grandhild of Agrican-American slaves? https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2020/09/jhj-changemaker-in-admissions https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2020/09/jhj-changemaker-in-a...
    - onetimeusename 4y ago
      Harvard and similar universities are WASP institutions run by WASPs you would have to convince me of this. It was previously a WASP institution but I don't think it is anymore or has been for some time. There are still fencing teams and professors in tweeds but that doesn't make it a WASP institution, maybe one that borrowed WASP culture. The ethnicity of the current president and provost and past few say otherwise. I think WASPs have been defeated in the court of public opinion and Harvard is no exception in fact more sensitive to public opinion because of its global significance. The root of your confusion seems to be thinking that I’m using “WASP” to mean “white people” generically. I am not sure it really matters to admissions but I know what the difference is. No one will argue there should be fewer Hispanic or Black students. It will never happen, it is socially unacceptable. There is a lot of momentum to accept more Asians and Harvard can't possibly accept being called racist. The end result will be whites of all groups will be accepted less as the future goes forward in order to appease all the other groups. This is in spite of the fact that whites appear to be within a general SD of Asian test scores[1]. Of course it seems unlikely that the school would deliberately accept fewer Jews because that also seems like a socially unacceptable result given that there was previously a Jewish quota. That could never happen again. But I think the stereotype of modern WASP as a lazy, corrupt, and dumb legacy admit is nefarious because no one really knows what a WASP is, it's not obvious, so any white student there could fit this. Also WASPs themselves are not necessarily this stereotype. Couldn't they be as hardworking and studious as any other group? edit: my point here is that Harvard admissions policies and lawsuits just seem like blatant evidence of ethnic conflict in the US and WASPs are a scapegoat who I don't think even have a say in the policies. Also here is the current fencing team[2]. Doesn't look WASPy. [1]: https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/10/22/asian-american-admit-sat-scores/ https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/10/22/asian-american... [2]: https://gocrimson.com/sports/mens-fencing/roster https://gocrimson.com/sports/mens-fencing/roster
- quantumwannabe 4y ago
  Why don’t you actually look up the religion and ethnicity of those people instead of blindly asserting that they are Protestants and Anglo-Saxons? You haven’t cited a single source showing that the leadership of the Ivy League are WASPs, but you’re claiming that all over this thread. If you’re going to make the bold assertion that the leaderships of those schools prefer applicants of their own ethnicity and religion, you better back it up with evidence, or else you just look like a bigoted racist.
rahimnathwani 4y ago
"White people as a broad category are the only racial group that is underrepresented relative to their population percentage in Ivy League schools." A better measure to consider: 4-year completion rates. At elite universities, Asians tend to have the highest completion rates (even higher than whites) suggesting that you could improve completion rates by admitting a few more Asians, and fewer from other groups (including whites). On this measure, Asians are the most 'underrepresented' group.
rayiner 4y ago
There is no such thing as “white people.” WASPs are a distinct tribe and feel zero affinity to white ethnics, Appalachians, etc.
- onetimeusename 4y ago
  Isn't that a bit like saying that there is no such thing as Asians? Both are still used for admissions it seems. I don't think WASPs have any influence on the admissions policy at Harvard and I have seen no evidence that they are over-represented there. Others have pointed out who are. I could go on about US history, immigration, and WASPs but its better to be brief. I think they lost their power. That better fits the data than the theory that WASPs control Harvard and despite being racist and anti-semitic seem to prefer every racial group but their own. It's really just a racist trope at this point that untalented, privileged, and elitist WASPs are the villain.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    Who said WASPs are racist? As a group, they’re probably the least racist people on the planet. Their conflict with Asians and Jews isn’t about race, but culture and worldview.
    - onetimeusename 4y ago
      But the president and provost are Jewish as have been several past ones. We're essentially arguing about which tiny elite has more power and influence, a corollary to being a Harvard alumnus. As others have pointed out, by parity it seems there would be more Jews than actual WASPs there in the student body presently. Over half of the whites may be Jewish and it's unlikely the rest are exclusively WASPs but we don't have exact granularity on this. I think the WASPs fell from power decades ago. It's almost inexcusable that they could have any power in a hyper race conscious society. I think they are kind of viewed as an archvillain in this country in some sense. As a result, I don't think the WASPs are still in control there. I think the sensibilities you mentioned to get in are not WASPy, but reflect the new elite.
    - 4y ago

trafficante 4y ago

I think the person you’re replying to is referring to the current(?) standardized testing regime that heavily rewards test prep above all else. There’s a very obvious correlation between the SATs de-emphasizing essays (~2000-2005ish) and Asians absolutely blasting past Whites in terms of average SAT score.

rayiner 4y ago

I didn’t say WASPs are given an edge. But the institutions are controlled by them. And minorities must appeal to their fancy to get in.

tdba 4y ago
> institutions are controlled by them Citation very much needed. Have you actually looked at who occupies the high level executive positions at Ivy league tier universities? It's not predominantly WASPs.
onetimeusename 4y ago
I didn't say WASPs are given an edge You are making a nuanced argument for sure then. But the Students for Fair Admissions have explicitly made the case that whites are given an advantage that takes Asian seats at Harvard via the children of faculty admissions, donations, essays, athletics, etc. But this discounts donations from certain foreign governments and I think it creates a misconception about the average white student there and pressures Harvard to specifically accept fewer whites (WASPs in particular imo) because that is the only socially acceptable result of their lawsuits despite whites being underrepresented there anyway. No one questions whether any other group has a backdoor admissions advantage though. But the institutions are controlled by them. And minorities must appeal to their fancy to get in. If you had said this about any other group it would not be socially acceptable even though a case could plausibly be made that Harvard is not run by the stereotypical blazer and khaki wearing WASPs. That's really what I am trying to point out is how strange it is that only WASPs can ever be criticized. I am not even trying to play a race card and I am strongly in favor of free speech. I am just trying to point out that in my opinion there is misdirection going on and that WASPs are probably being scapegoated in the fight over Harvard. Especially since anti-WASPishness has been the esprit de corps in academia for some time, I doubt they have any real control there. See other commenter's posts for example. edit: this is a deep topic for sure and touches on a lot of American history. Given that every US president until Kennedy was a WASP, and that Harvard was started by WASPs for WASPs, Harvard's student body was undoubtedly slanted towards WASPs. But I personally doubt this has been true for at least a decade now but probably longer.
- rayiner 4y ago
  > You are making a nuanced argument for sure then. It’s not a nuanced argument at all. Harvard and similar universities are WASP institutions run by WASPs. When you have non-objective admissions standards, you have to appeal to their WASP sensibilities to get admitted. That doesn’t necessarily mean they prefer other WASPs. They also like minorities that affirm their worldview (but not so much minorities that don’t affirm their worldview). The root of your confusion seems to be thinking that I’m using “WASP” to mean “white people” generically. White people aren’t a monolith. Harvard WASPs have nothing to do with folks in Appalachia (who may literally be white and Protestant).
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - lupire 4y ago
    Northern White Anglo-Saxon Protestants like David Evans, who spent 50 years in Harvard Admissions, and was born in Arkansas to the grandhild of Agrican-American slaves? https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2020/09/jhj-changemaker-in-admissions https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2020/09/jhj-changemaker-in-a...
  - onetimeusename 4y ago
    Harvard and similar universities are WASP institutions run by WASPs you would have to convince me of this. It was previously a WASP institution but I don't think it is anymore or has been for some time. There are still fencing teams and professors in tweeds but that doesn't make it a WASP institution, maybe one that borrowed WASP culture. The ethnicity of the current president and provost and past few say otherwise. I think WASPs have been defeated in the court of public opinion and Harvard is no exception in fact more sensitive to public opinion because of its global significance. The root of your confusion seems to be thinking that I’m using “WASP” to mean “white people” generically. I am not sure it really matters to admissions but I know what the difference is. No one will argue there should be fewer Hispanic or Black students. It will never happen, it is socially unacceptable. There is a lot of momentum to accept more Asians and Harvard can't possibly accept being called racist. The end result will be whites of all groups will be accepted less as the future goes forward in order to appease all the other groups. This is in spite of the fact that whites appear to be within a general SD of Asian test scores[1]. Of course it seems unlikely that the school would deliberately accept fewer Jews because that also seems like a socially unacceptable result given that there was previously a Jewish quota. That could never happen again. But I think the stereotype of modern WASP as a lazy, corrupt, and dumb legacy admit is nefarious because no one really knows what a WASP is, it's not obvious, so any white student there could fit this. Also WASPs themselves are not necessarily this stereotype. Couldn't they be as hardworking and studious as any other group? edit: my point here is that Harvard admissions policies and lawsuits just seem like blatant evidence of ethnic conflict in the US and WASPs are a scapegoat who I don't think even have a say in the policies. Also here is the current fencing team[2]. Doesn't look WASPy. [1]: https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/10/22/asian-american-admit-sat-scores/ https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/10/22/asian-american... [2]: https://gocrimson.com/sports/mens-fencing/roster https://gocrimson.com/sports/mens-fencing/roster
quantumwannabe 4y ago
Why don’t you actually look up the religion and ethnicity of those people instead of blindly asserting that they are Protestants and Anglo-Saxons? You haven’t cited a single source showing that the leadership of the Ivy League are WASPs, but you’re claiming that all over this thread. If you’re going to make the bold assertion that the leaderships of those schools prefer applicants of their own ethnicity and religion, you better back it up with evidence, or else you just look like a bigoted racist.

rahimnathwani 4y ago

"White people as a broad category are the only racial group that is underrepresented relative to their population percentage in Ivy League schools." A better measure to consider: 4-year completion rates. At elite universities, Asians tend to have the highest completion rates (even higher than whites) suggesting that you could improve completion rates by admitting a few more Asians, and fewer from other groups (including whites). On this measure, Asians are the most 'underrepresented' group.

rayiner 4y ago

There is no such thing as “white people.” WASPs are a distinct tribe and feel zero affinity to white ethnics, Appalachians, etc.

onetimeusename 4y ago
Isn't that a bit like saying that there is no such thing as Asians? Both are still used for admissions it seems. I don't think WASPs have any influence on the admissions policy at Harvard and I have seen no evidence that they are over-represented there. Others have pointed out who are. I could go on about US history, immigration, and WASPs but its better to be brief. I think they lost their power. That better fits the data than the theory that WASPs control Harvard and despite being racist and anti-semitic seem to prefer every racial group but their own. It's really just a racist trope at this point that untalented, privileged, and elitist WASPs are the villain.
- rayiner 4y ago
  Who said WASPs are racist? As a group, they’re probably the least racist people on the planet. Their conflict with Asians and Jews isn’t about race, but culture and worldview.
  - onetimeusename 4y ago
    But the president and provost are Jewish as have been several past ones. We're essentially arguing about which tiny elite has more power and influence, a corollary to being a Harvard alumnus. As others have pointed out, by parity it seems there would be more Jews than actual WASPs there in the student body presently. Over half of the whites may be Jewish and it's unlikely the rest are exclusively WASPs but we don't have exact granularity on this. I think the WASPs fell from power decades ago. It's almost inexcusable that they could have any power in a hyper race conscious society. I think they are kind of viewed as an archvillain in this country in some sense. As a result, I don't think the WASPs are still in control there. I think the sensibilities you mentioned to get in are not WASPy, but reflect the new elite.
  - 4y ago