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Prisoners did not choose to go to prison, therefore we can't ask them to pay for the costs of putting them in prison. Society decides that it is best to lock so

Prisoners did not choose to go to prison, therefore we can't ask them to pay for the costs of putting them in prison. Society decides that it is best to lock some people up; therefore it's also the society that should to pay the cost of keeping them locked up. Prisons are expensive, which is one reason why we should really only lock up people when there is no other way. If someone is not a danger to society, we shouldn't lock them up.

therealdrag0 4y ago
I see your point. Seems pretty subjective either way. For example, “I didn’t choose for my car to be towed so the cost should be paid by the tower.” But to some extent maybe it’s moot because most prisoners would never be able to cover the full cost of their stay. I wonder though if there was a sort of coding-bootcamp-like profit sharing model with inmates where the gov tried to maximize their economic productivity they might end up getting trained for better and more humane jobs, trades, nursing, coding, winwin.
dchftcs 4y ago
Um, you make it sound like prisoners are just helpless beings that have no agency and are fully passively pushed into a situation. Society didn't ask the prisoners to commit crimes either, but they (mostly) did anyway. Society has no choice but to impose a very unproductive form of punishment, and needs to find a way to get something out of it. The main reason to be against prison labor is that it creates perverse incentives to not rehabilitate prisoners (even though participation in labor may help with the rehabilitation process). There's also a risk that cheap prison labor undercuts legitimate businesses. Prisoners also can't be entrusted with anything outside menial and low-impact labor, and as a result the amount of productivity they can offer is really limited. But requiring prisoners to work partially for their own food and shelter in itself shouldn't be that controversial, especially when they are convicted of serious crime.
- scarface74 4y ago
  So which society are you living in? Every statistic shows that minorities get much harsher sentences, are represented by an underfunded public defenders office, are coerced to plea bargain (95%) are harassed more by police etc. The entire criminal Justice system is corrupt to the core. Let’s not even talk about the “War on drugs” that becomes “treat drug abuse as a medical condition” when it happens in “rural communities”
- meheleventyone 4y ago
  > Society has no choice but to impose a very unproductive form of punishment No choice? That’s pretty laughably untrue and flies in the face of all the evidence about incarceration being totally rubbish as a punishment.
  - dchftcs 4y ago
    Incarceration is not necessarily effective but what alternative can you propose, as a scalable form of punishment? How do you define "totally rubbish"?
    - socialismisok 4y ago
      We could start by not prosecuting done crimes. Why do you go to jail for possessing marijuana, prostitution, crossed a border without permission, or because you are awaiting trial? (Which is why most people are in jail.) We start by taking these hundreds of thousands of people who really shouldn't be in jail or prison at all and ask, "what programs would help them from not doing this again? What's the root cause we can address?" And we start implementing social programs that will help support, educate, and reform folks. Some combination of: 1) Remove a lot of drug crimes from the books and clear convictions. Many of these shouldn't be punishable at all. 2) invest in housing, food, and mental health support to catch folks before they turn to low level theft. Give them to people convicted as well. If you change their situations, many will never need to commit crimes again. 3) Levy fines, garnish wages while providing support. Restrict movement if needed by requiring folks stay in contact with a parole officer or mental health support professional. Etc Most "criminals" are folks who are in positions where we left them few choices as a society.
      - dchftcs 4y ago
        Most of what you're saying is that we should select prisoners better and avoid creating more criminals as a society. The principle I agree. However this part is completely non-sequitur, as the point of contention is whether there's something better than prison to deal with after-the-fact criminals. The only alternative you give is a very soft form of restricting movement, which is devoid of reality for many forms of crime from petty theft and embezzlement to rape and murder.
- YeBanKo 4y ago
  Inmates are one of the largest workforce of CalFire when they need to deal with large forest fires. I don’t CalFire would be able to scale up to the task if they didn’t have this resource. Allegedly it is volunteer-based and you need to meet certain requirements and take training to participate. I’d say this kind of work is above low-impact.
  - shagie 4y ago
    Two articles that bear reading: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-history-of-californias-inmate-firefighter-program-180980662/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-history-of-califo... https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicksibilla/2021/02/16/federal-judge-californians-who-fought-fires-in-prison-cant-become-career-firefighters/?sh=3dd58f05170f https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicksibilla/2021/02/16/federal-...
  - dchftcs 4y ago
    This is great though ironically one of the less humane ways to utilize prison labor. To be entrusted with work like that you'd have to have a decent record for a criminal, for example serving for a less serious crime or have made good progress in rehabilitation. But the work is more grueling and dangerous than most other kinds of prison labor.

therealdrag0 4y ago

I see your point. Seems pretty subjective either way. For example, “I didn’t choose for my car to be towed so the cost should be paid by the tower.” But to some extent maybe it’s moot because most prisoners would never be able to cover the full cost of their stay. I wonder though if there was a sort of coding-bootcamp-like profit sharing model with inmates where the gov tried to maximize their economic productivity they might end up getting trained for better and more humane jobs, trades, nursing, coding, winwin.

dchftcs 4y ago

Um, you make it sound like prisoners are just helpless beings that have no agency and are fully passively pushed into a situation. Society didn't ask the prisoners to commit crimes either, but they (mostly) did anyway. Society has no choice but to impose a very unproductive form of punishment, and needs to find a way to get something out of it. The main reason to be against prison labor is that it creates perverse incentives to not rehabilitate prisoners (even though participation in labor may help with the rehabilitation process). There's also a risk that cheap prison labor undercuts legitimate businesses. Prisoners also can't be entrusted with anything outside menial and low-impact labor, and as a result the amount of productivity they can offer is really limited. But requiring prisoners to work partially for their own food and shelter in itself shouldn't be that controversial, especially when they are convicted of serious crime.

scarface74 4y ago
So which society are you living in? Every statistic shows that minorities get much harsher sentences, are represented by an underfunded public defenders office, are coerced to plea bargain (95%) are harassed more by police etc. The entire criminal Justice system is corrupt to the core. Let’s not even talk about the “War on drugs” that becomes “treat drug abuse as a medical condition” when it happens in “rural communities”
meheleventyone 4y ago
> Society has no choice but to impose a very unproductive form of punishment No choice? That’s pretty laughably untrue and flies in the face of all the evidence about incarceration being totally rubbish as a punishment.
- dchftcs 4y ago
  Incarceration is not necessarily effective but what alternative can you propose, as a scalable form of punishment? How do you define "totally rubbish"?
  - socialismisok 4y ago
    We could start by not prosecuting done crimes. Why do you go to jail for possessing marijuana, prostitution, crossed a border without permission, or because you are awaiting trial? (Which is why most people are in jail.) We start by taking these hundreds of thousands of people who really shouldn't be in jail or prison at all and ask, "what programs would help them from not doing this again? What's the root cause we can address?" And we start implementing social programs that will help support, educate, and reform folks. Some combination of: 1) Remove a lot of drug crimes from the books and clear convictions. Many of these shouldn't be punishable at all. 2) invest in housing, food, and mental health support to catch folks before they turn to low level theft. Give them to people convicted as well. If you change their situations, many will never need to commit crimes again. 3) Levy fines, garnish wages while providing support. Restrict movement if needed by requiring folks stay in contact with a parole officer or mental health support professional. Etc Most "criminals" are folks who are in positions where we left them few choices as a society.
    - dchftcs 4y ago
      Most of what you're saying is that we should select prisoners better and avoid creating more criminals as a society. The principle I agree. However this part is completely non-sequitur, as the point of contention is whether there's something better than prison to deal with after-the-fact criminals. The only alternative you give is a very soft form of restricting movement, which is devoid of reality for many forms of crime from petty theft and embezzlement to rape and murder.
YeBanKo 4y ago
Inmates are one of the largest workforce of CalFire when they need to deal with large forest fires. I don’t CalFire would be able to scale up to the task if they didn’t have this resource. Allegedly it is volunteer-based and you need to meet certain requirements and take training to participate. I’d say this kind of work is above low-impact.
- shagie 4y ago
  Two articles that bear reading: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-history-of-californias-inmate-firefighter-program-180980662/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-history-of-califo... https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicksibilla/2021/02/16/federal-judge-californians-who-fought-fires-in-prison-cant-become-career-firefighters/?sh=3dd58f05170f https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicksibilla/2021/02/16/federal-...
- dchftcs 4y ago
  This is great though ironically one of the less humane ways to utilize prison labor. To be entrusted with work like that you'd have to have a decent record for a criminal, for example serving for a less serious crime or have made good progress in rehabilitation. But the work is more grueling and dangerous than most other kinds of prison labor.